So I'm not seeing how this is them changing things up from 2.0/3.0

[CosmicKirby]

You really must not have played any MMOs before this, because an expansion is supposed to be an opportunity to re-invent the game. To be daring. Nobody likes to do the same thing repeatedly. There are some things at the core which stick and just evolve with the game (dungeons/raids/quests/etc...), but things generally change from expansion to expansion. Grinding dungeons for tomes as the majority endgame is not fun for a lot of people anymore.

You in the wroooooooooooooooooong genre with that sentiment.

WoW did a few character model updates after either Cata or Mists but for the most part it wasnt a complete overhaul. And are those two pics the same runescape? IIRC Runescape was completely remade at some point. And in terms of the models used for Gosetsu and Lyse, thats more of a hand built character than a graphical upgrade, even Yugiri has been using a hand built face since 2.55 along with most of the scions. Quite a few NPCs have been gettin that treatment.

Also if Runescape is i believe, its the same reason i didnt include RO>RO2 and EQ>EQ2. But alas runescape kindof fell off my radar by the time i pickec up EQ2.

It's the same Runescape. Currently on, "Runescape 3". A similar huge leap from when it was a 2d isometric game (Runescape 1), into the 3d java game we all remember, (Runescape 2.)

The older races (from vanilla WoW) Were most definitely a massive/complete Overhaul. Heck. Cataclysm is so 'old' at this point, they'll likely be revamping the models for Goblins and Worgen by the next xpansion. Old MMOs is old.

[OcieKo]

It's the same Runescape. Currently on, "Runescape 3". A similar huge leap from when it was a 2d isometric game (Runescape 1), into the 3d java game we all remember, (Runescape 2.)

The older races (from vanilla WoW) Were most definitely a massive/complete Overhaul. Heck. Cataclysm is so 'old' at this point, they'll likely be revamping the models for Goblins and Worgen by the next xpansion. Old MMOs is old.

From what i can research quickly it looks like theres up to 4 runescapes, from 1 to 2 (Runescape Classic > Runescape) an entire engine rewrite happened and they run concurrently so they are separate games. Seemes like 3 crashed and burned, DarkScape (Runescape PVP) version crashed and burned as well, then worked on another upgrade which may be Runescape 4 per say. If there was a graphics update from RS2-RS4 that may qualify, but RS1(RSC)>RS2(RS) those would fall under the EQ1>EQ2/RO>RO2 examples of whole new games.

[Averax]

You in the wroooooooooooooooooong genre with that sentiment.

I've been playing wow for years, and not once have they failed to make things different from expansion to expansion. The things they've done haven't always made some people happy, but they were different nonetheless, and not treading the well worn path they always had been.

[Kling-Klang]

I've been playing wow for years, and not once have they failed to make things different from expansion to expansion. The things they've done haven't always made some people happy, but they were different nonetheless, and not treading the well worn path they always had been.

I actually agree with this, that is why I am so underwhelmed with SB. It doesnt look like there are any real changes to anything so far.
I am just used to expansions really changing a lot of things and how one plays the game.

[CosmicKirby]

I've been playing wow for years, and not once have they failed to make things different from expansion to expansion. The things they've done haven't always made some people happy, but they were different nonetheless, and not treading the well worn path they always had been.

(Anyone who actually played WoW during WOD, knows EXACTLY what this means.)


How many times in EITHER MMORPG here, did you:

- Run a dungeon you had already completed?
- Run a dungeon you had already completed to obtain a token currency for loot?
- Run a dungeon you had already completed to obtain an item with a very low drop rate?
- 'Farmed' for an item by killing a mob repeatedly, or 'gathering' the same thing repeatedly.
- Decided to idle or hang around the same spot in game.
- Ever done a 'DAILY' question, more than once. (The very idea of a DAILY quest belies repetition.)
- Rose a reputation in EITHER game to its highest level. In both cases requiring some or multiple of the above.
- Tried to build an Anima weapon or level your Artifact weapon in WoW

The very bread and butter of the MMORPG is repetition. In some sort of bizarre way. Most MMORPG players want something that is 'difficult' to obtain that we can use as a marker of our success. A very accepted, (though criticized) way of doing this is to require devotion or a large grind to get something, the other less popular way is through sheer difficulty. Everyone in an MMORPG wants something that feels 'special' or 'unique' to them or their character. And the only way you can do that is to either lie to the player and treat them as unique when they're not, or to make something so difficult to obtain they really are relatively unique in earning it.


Repetition isn't bad. It's just a slightly lazy and potentially manipulative way to design something. But if you enjoy it for what it is there's nothing wrong with it. I am utterly baffled how you don't see repetition is a very core mechanic of design in MMOs. Any 'addictive' game is 'guilty' of the same thing.


Beyond ALL this. Anything WoW has added since Cataclysm, has basically been directly uplifted from their competition having an idea that played well and potentially drove their playerbase towards it. You can see this with their heavy focus on Story they borrowed from FF14, you can see this with World events they borrowed from GW2 and FF14, and you can see this with Artifact Weapons being a singular evolving big pretty weapon you develop over time like FF14 Animas. 'Different' also implies originality, which is worth pointing out that WoW isn't really that beast anymore.

[Averax]

(Anyone who actually played WoW during WOD, knows EXACTLY what this means.)

How many times in EITHER MMORPG here, did you:

- Run a dungeon you had already completed?
- Run a dungeon you had already completed to obtain a token currency for loot?
- Run a dungeon you had already completed to obtain an item with a very low drop rate?
- 'Farmed' for an item by killing a mob repeatedly, or 'gathering' the same thing repeatedly.
- Decided to idle or hang around the same spot in game.
- Ever done a 'DAILY' question, more than once. (The very idea of a DAILY quest belies repetition.)
- Rose a reputation in EITHER game to its highest level. In both cases requiring some or multiple of the above.
- Tried to build an Anima weapon or level your Artifact weapon in WoW

The very bread and butter of the MMORPG is repetition. In some sort of bizarre way. Most MMORPG players want something that is 'difficult' to obtain that we can use as a marker of our success. A very accepted, (though criticized) way of doing this is to require devotion or a large grind to get something, the other less popular way is through sheer difficulty. Everyone in an MMORPG wants something that feels 'special' or 'unique' to them or their character. And the only way you can do that is to either lie to the player and treat them as unique when they're not, or to make something so difficult to obtain they really are relatively unique in earning it.


Repetition isn't bad. It's just a slightly lazy and potentially manipulative way to design something. But if you enjoy it for what it is there's nothing wrong with it. I am utterly baffled how you don't see repetition is a very core mechanic of design in MMOs. Any 'addictive' game is 'guilty' of the same thing.


Beyond ALL this. Anything WoW has added since Cataclysm, has basically been directly uplifted from their competition having an idea that played well and potentially drove their playerbase towards it. You can see this with their heavy focus on Story they borrowed from FF14, you can see this with World events they borrowed from GW2 and FF14, and you can see this with Artifact Weapons being a singular evolving big pretty weapon you develop over time like FF14 Animas. 'Different' also implies originality, which is worth pointing out that WoW isn't really that beast anymore.

1. I love that picture, but i actually left wow for a while during WoD, it was so bad. Instead of adding new things to do, they added nothing, removed player interaction almost entirely, and expected players to like it, but hey, we got a selfie camera. WoD is actually what caused me, and many other wow players, to come here. It got better around 6.2, but it came too late, and lasted too long.

2. I'm not saying some repetitiveness is bad, i'm saying that the same crap with a different coat of paint is getting old. Since 2.0, our formula has been -grind tomes from dungeon->use tomes for gear- rinse and repeat. There is no other way to get gear unless you're into savage, which isn't for everyone. If there were different ways to get good gear, like the diadem 2.0 was a step in the right direction, but actual gear you can use in there is few and far between.

I have high hopes for whatever Eureka is going to be, because i can't and won't continue to grind the same two dungeons for tomes for gear anymore.

[OcieKo]

I feel like its weird that i use multiple ways of building my gear... 8 man token turn ins, dungeon drops, 24 man drops, tomestones, crafted, pvp, hunts ( <3 the hunt billmarks for lvling thru the 50s ), relic, and sometimes even company seals...

Yet somehow people keep saying theres only one way... And to think i dont do savages or ex primals really, and those are also more options... Oh forgot weekly repeatable quests too... I do that as well...

Only way you get narrowed down is when you trying to follow the script of getting the highest ilvl available as fast as possible.

[Neophyte]

Instead of an expansion like Baldurs Gate 2 -> Throne of Bhaal, some people expect it to be like Baldurs Gate -> Dragon Age (and whenever I hear formula change I think of DA->DA2, urgh).

An Expansion is Diablo2->Lord of Destruction and not Diablo2->Diablo3 or Starcraft->Broodwar and not Starcraft-Starcraft2.

[Kaonis]

Instead of an expansion like Baldurs Gate 2 -> Throne of Bhaal, some people expect it to be like Baldurs Gate -> Dragon Age (and whenever I hear formula change I think of DA->DA2, urgh).

An Expansion is Diablo2->Lord of Destruction and not Diablo2->Diablo3 or Starcraft->Broodwar and not Starcraft-Starcraft2.

This is what irks me, as it's a misrepresentation of what people asking for. People are asking for more of something along the lines of FFXI -> ToAU -> WoTG -> SoA.

What people want is the same sort of innovation and creativity those expansions brought. WoTG is a great example I think, as it was themed around war, had the campaign system, and had different activities that revolved around it from a guildleve-like daily system in the main cities to actual battles to hold/take forts. And this is on a PS2 game nearly a decade ago.

People are looking at FFXI and how they added new activities in the expansions, and asking for those sorts of changes. And given that these are 2 games from the same company it's fairly frustrating to see such a stark contrast in game design between the 2.

[Reinha]

In 1.0 you had to open all chests to get one of the 5 possible boss chests. Skip a single chest and you get 1 boss chest less.

I don't see how that prevents speed runners from skipping those chests, if they just don't care for the boss loot and don't give a toss about the party member(s) who do.

2. I'm not saying some repetitiveness is bad, i'm saying that the same crap with a different coat of paint is getting old. Since 2.0, our formula has been -grind tomes from dungeon->use tomes for gear- rinse and repeat. There is no other way to get gear unless you're into savage, which isn't for everyone. If there were different ways to get good gear, like the diadem 2.0 was a step in the right direction, but actual gear you can use in there is few and far between.

You can get gear from 8 man story mode without a static (like you said hard raiding isn't for everyone so this is "new" content for some), that wasn't there in ARR. You could also get weapons from PotD, that wasn't there in ARR. And Diadem is also a new mode of getting gear, like it or not. That's 3 gearing methods that weren't there in ARR. Does that not count and do other types of content need to be discontinued for it to count as a formula change?