So I'm not seeing how this is them changing things up from 2.0/3.0

[Yasuhiro]

You really must not have played any MMOs before this, because an expansion is supposed to be an opportunity to re-invent the game.

I'm someone that doesn't really play MMO's and only played XI and XIV because they're Final Fantasy titles and even I know what's expected out of an expansion.
3 Dungeons a patch to 2 isn't expanding at all it's a detraction. Cautiously optimistic for Stormblood myself, looking at all the trailers for FFXI's expansion packs makes me wish I was there in its prime for the hype.

I even see swimming as fluff/artificial "expansion" for lack of a better term in this game because supposedly there's no underwater combat, the benchmark isn't a true representation of what's to come I'm aware of that but seeing all those mobs underwater and the Kraken attacking the player just screams "we could of had that"

/rant over

[Lambdafish]

Day 1 of patch. Acquired gear sufficient enough to clear ANY content currently available.
Farming Savage to get BiS for content that i am already farming, so i can farm it better.
Day 1 of new patch. Get rid of all the gear i farmed and acquire new crafted gear sufficient to clear ANY content available.

Honestly, this was a heavensward exclusive problem for me. This isn't to do with the way the game is designed but rather how they balance the gear. I think halfway through heavensward they decided to stop caring about top end players as we got no unique glamour, gear that didn't even matter because gear checks were so low, and no real gear cycle progression as the content wasn't tuned for any kind of progression.

This needs to change, we need a clear goal for gear progression, a proper stepping stone map of what gear to get to enter (or at least reasonably beat) what content, and DF/PF/raid finder should check the gear to make sure that you are suitably dressed for the fight.

[OcieKo]

Commentary on recurring points I see:

1: Add flying to ARR Zones: from an art perspective this is a MASSIVE undertaking, doing this would pretty much require building all the zones from scratch. Video hame assets are generally made with certain viewpoints in mind, when you add a new viewpoint the art has to reflect that ability. Your average video game tree looks like garbage from above. One point of reference here for specifically flying in old zones would be WoW Cataclysm, had very few new open world zones in comparison to other expacs and even some major patches.

2: Improve the Graphics: this is more of an issue with maintaining a reasonable min specs. PS3 support being dropped is a beginning step here, and quite frankly this game doesnt look bad enough to warrant this big of an overhaul. Also CG graphics are nearing an indefinite plateau, its more of an issue of the speed of rendering and the cost efficiency of production. Only MMO i know of that has done a major graphics overhaul was EQ1 in Shadows of Luclin expansion, even than i think some parts of the game werent actually finished being redone for a few more expacs.

3: Cross Realm Interaction Hindering Community Building: is everyone mentioning this seriously ignoring that theyve been telling us theyve been working on cross realm friends lists, tells, and link shells to follow up on the group finder improvements? Or that they have plans to hopefully eventually allow cross realm Free Companies?

4: Proposed Combat Changes Seem Like a "Dumbing Down": while in some regards this is true, but so far im optimistic as to the methid they're proposing. Skill bloat is an issue that has been plaguing long running MMOS since UO. Eventually left unchecked being a top teir player becomes physically improbable bordering on impossible. Which can lead to the production of bots that can run scripts far better than a player can actually press so many buttons in the necessary time frame. Essentially players would cease to surpass the systems expectations because they literally cant. GW/GW2 countered this by having a limit on usable skills at a given time, others games simply remove old skills or let them become irrelevant by making new improved versions, which would be no just rehashed old stuff still anyways.

5: Casual Friendly Gear Progression: Tomestones/Tokens/Crafted/Handouts/Quested/etc fall here. Anyone whos played MMOs at endgame for the past 20 years or so has probably felt the frustration of getting nothing for weeks because "nothing for me dropped". These systems simply exist to make a goal achievable, pure RNG sucks, a lot, imagine alexander savage without the manifestos when the weekly lockout is still in place, ya ouch. You say you want new ways, but realistically there isnt any. Sure they could never add new tomestones and we could use soldiery for everything, but the incentive to do harder content would drop and i mean harder as in like doing EX roulette as opposed to a premade lvl 50 dungeon with a high tomestone count so an actual 50 can get 50 gear at a humane pace. If it helps think of it like at work everyone rolls 5 d20s and top 4 rolls get paid that week as opposed to top 4 rolls get a bonus... Situation one most people would quit and sue for their pay, situation 2 youd hope for a high yahtzee. Try to say you like the first option better. In the end Quest Reward, General Currency, Special Currency, Item Turn-In (Pre-Determined Barter), Make It Yourself, or Freebie is literally about all the ways to obtain an item within human knowledge limitations. This is a wheel not a battery it cant be reinvented anymore. You can make it look different but eventually you realize it still rolls pretty easily just like all its predecessors...

[Lambdafish]

2: Improve the Graphics: this is more of an issue with maintaining a reasonable min specs. PS3 support being dropped is a beginning step here, and quite frankly this game doesnt look bad enough to warrant this big of an overhaul. Also CG graphics are nearing an indefinite plateau, its more of an issue of the speed of rendering and the cost efficiency of production. Only MMO i know of that has done a major graphics overhaul was EQ1 in Shadows of Luclin expansion, even than i think some parts of the game werent actually finished being redone for a few more expacs.

Two other MMOs that have had massive visual upgrades that I know of are WoW and runescape, both of which are many years old and had to do so to keep current. You are right that XIV has no real need, and even then I'd say that stormblood has indeed had a visual upgrade, compare the models of gosetsu and lyse in 3.55 to some of the ARR models and you can see a definite improvement in poly count.

For reference on WoW and runescape:

[OcieKo]

WoW did a few character model updates after either Cata or Mists but for the most part it wasnt a complete overhaul. And are those two pics the same runescape? IIRC Runescape was completely remade at some point. And in terms of the models used for Gosetsu and Lyse, thats more of a hand built character than a graphical upgrade, even Yugiri has been using a hand built face since 2.55 along with most of the scions. Quite a few NPCs have been gettin that treatment.

Also if Runescape is i believe, its the same reason i didnt include RO>RO2 and EQ>EQ2. But alas runescape kindof fell off my radar by the time i picked up EQ2.

Edit: you could say WoW has been gradually improving their graphics in new content, but even FF14 has been doing that so kindof moot for this discussion at least. Just look at 2.1 > 2.55 cutscenes, and HW zones look vastly better than ARR, and from the looks of it SBs are doing it again. Ill make sure to clarify my meaning on graphical update in my previous post tho, was more directed at the complaints that everything wasnt being improved.

Edit: Also the Lyse/Gosetsu/Major NPC updates have more in common with the Sylvannas/Tyrande/Faction leader updates when they got unique models. Still dont think lvl 8 Boars Wolves and Raptors have been graphically updated yet even during the run when they improved old character models texture maps to match the newer races, not sure if they update the polycount during that run tho, will have to look into it to be sure. And a side note to this, upgrading character models usually gets a pretty poor reception until people calm down and realize they can make em look better 3-4 months after release (highly advisable to hand out a fantasia type service with these updates in MMOs)

[CosmicKirby]

You really must not have played any MMOs before this, because an expansion is supposed to be an opportunity to re-invent the game. To be daring. Nobody likes to do the same thing repeatedly. There are some things at the core which stick and just evolve with the game (dungeons/raids/quests/etc...), but things generally change from expansion to expansion. Grinding dungeons for tomes as the majority endgame is not fun for a lot of people anymore.

You in the wroooooooooooooooooong genre with that sentiment.

WoW did a few character model updates after either Cata or Mists but for the most part it wasnt a complete overhaul. And are those two pics the same runescape? IIRC Runescape was completely remade at some point. And in terms of the models used for Gosetsu and Lyse, thats more of a hand built character than a graphical upgrade, even Yugiri has been using a hand built face since 2.55 along with most of the scions. Quite a few NPCs have been gettin that treatment.

Also if Runescape is i believe, its the same reason i didnt include RO>RO2 and EQ>EQ2. But alas runescape kindof fell off my radar by the time i pickec up EQ2.

It's the same Runescape. Currently on, "Runescape 3". A similar huge leap from when it was a 2d isometric game (Runescape 1), into the 3d java game we all remember, (Runescape 2.)

The older races (from vanilla WoW) Were most definitely a massive/complete Overhaul. Heck. Cataclysm is so 'old' at this point, they'll likely be revamping the models for Goblins and Worgen by the next xpansion. Old MMOs is old.

[Talraen]

Mega Man 1 is a great game
Mega Man 2 is a greater game
Mega Man 3 is another good game
Mega Man 4 is as well
Mega Man 5....okay I've played this a little too much before.

I think Mega Man is actually a very good argument against changing your formula. Most people agree that Mega Man 2 is the best, though some say 3. 4 is where things really start to decline, and it's almost entirely because they added the charge shot. 7 and 8 changed the platform and added a whole bunch of collecting, and those were pretty mediocre too. Then they removed all that stuff and just designed a great game, and we got Mega Man 9, which I actually think is better than 2. (And I play the entire series regularly, this isn't blind nostalgia talking.) Now, I personally think 9 is great entirely because of how well-made it is. Every weapon is super useful in all content, for instance, something later (than 2) Mega Man games stopped doing. But it's worth pointing out that Mega Man 9 also stripped away all of the "improvements" they added after Mega Man 2 and went back to basics. So... maybe not the best series to use as an example of why changes are needed.

If Stormblood comes out and adds no new wrinkles to progression at all, but has amazingly-designed dungeons and a legitimately awesome story, people will like it. Conversely, if they change it to the platonic ideal of MMO progression (whatever that is) but the design is mediocre, people will hate it. Quality is quality. Hopefully the alleged increased budget will yield that quality.

[dragonseth07]

snip

You're right, and there are many series that show the same telling trend:

The best received and best sold games in a series tend to be the ones that stick to the formula.

It's a reality that, as much as gamers ask for innovation, they don't actually WANT it.

[Shougun]

It's a reality that, as much as gamers ask for innovation, they don't actually WANT it.

Upgrades, they love upgrades. Brb need to upgrade my grandmas in cookie clicker.. :3


As aside: (I think sometimes variations upon the winning formula can be seen as innovation, but complete 180 changes I don't recall that many games for being worlds better for it - maybe worse because of it)

[Talraen]

You're right, and there are many series that show the same telling trend:

The best received and best sold games in a series tend to be the ones that stick to the formula.

It's a reality that, as much as gamers ask for innovation, they don't actually WANT it.

In fairness, it goes both ways. Resident Evil was getting stale, 4 changed the formula, and people loved it. Call of Duty's WW2 was getting stale, they went modern, people loved that. And then they went future and people hated it, so they're going back to WW2.

I mean, the lesson to be learned, I think, is that innovation can be good or bad. Crazy, I know. It's a risk. I don't think it's a risk worth taking in this case, many people (such as myself) like the way the game works.