Why are summoners so neglected?

[Silverquick]

Personally, I'd favor proven identity even over proven functionality thus far even then though;

I don't... that was the FFXI Summoner... its the ... "I look kewl while getting my butt kicked" formula....

The FFXIV Summoner is... I may look plain... but I'll kick you to the curb.... and the army you brought with you too...

I prefer the latter.

[Rysir]

I don't... that was the FFXI Summoner... its the ... "I look kewl while getting my butt kicked" formula....

The FFXIV Summoner is... I may look plain... but I'll kick you to the curb.... and the army you brought with you too...

I prefer the latter.

I have a question thats been sitting with me for a long time.

Why is it when summoner gets complaints that you and a lot of others instantly jump to the power of the class and how you dont want FF11? Since like summoner was not invented by 11 though it was influenced in style by 11.

We actually dont care about the power as thats not the issue, having an identity does not automatically mean "we want FF11 summoner" so what is it that makes you say we want that? Since really FF14 summoner is FF11's summoner but instead of heal oriented its DOT and damage with the cost over time to keep it summoned removed.

One would think that if people wanted to stay as far away from FF11 like it was the plague they would agree to returning to classic forms which leaves me confused to these responses.

[Silverquick]

One would think that if people wanted to stay as far away from FF11 like it was the plague they would agree to returning to classic forms which leaves me confused to these responses.

That's fine.... but half the people in this thread are talking about types of things that won't help the Summoner... or will only wreck it.

And they seem to be doing it without the really even knowing how the Job currently works or performs.

Lets be serious for a minute here... If the people here were only talking about a cosmetic "make this more cool looking" type adjustment. Yeah I could see it.

For example: Painflare is pretty weak on the animation side. It could stand to be spiced up just from a graffics perspective. And most people can't even tell when you kick in Aerial Blast from Garuda the graffic tell is that weak.

Secondly... the recast timer ON Enkindle (Aka what you use for those Ifrit/Garuda/Titan special Attacks akin to Deathflare/Teraflare) needs to be shortened to about 1 minute or less to bring it on line with Teraflare... this goes akin to the Deathflare/Teraflare rotation using the Aetherflow stacks (which allow Deathflare once every minute) and will even things out with other jobs at level 50 which is where the job needed help prior.

The things are already built into the base mechanics... but shallow people who only see "pretty things" can't tell when these things are happening or how good the damage actually is.

So really... the only things you REALLY need is all graffics related or "terminology" related... I mean things like... Blizzard 2 being re-labeled to something like Icy Breath of Shiva or something like that... but in the end its all the same... just a different name and terminology.

And they seem to be doing it without the really even knowing how the Job currently works or performs.

[Rysir]

That's fine.... but half the people in this thread are talking about types of things that won't help the Summoner... will only only wreck it.

So really... the only things you REALLY need is all graffics relate or "terminology"... I mean things like... Blizzard 2 being re-labeled to something like Icy Breath of Shiva or something like that... but in the end its all the same... just a different name and terminology.

Id think a lot of the frustration is that the modern summoner could have played exactly the same with the DOT game its got going as now but actually utilize the summons instead of just being little poofs of viruses. Like Im pretty sure that if all DOT moves and such had the visuals of summons or semi egis attacking and placing the effects that there would be tons and tons less complaining, there would still be some obviously since there always is.

Having the current DOTs masked as summons would curb a lot of frustration though not a perfect fix but it would improve its visual appeal and sell it as a summoner better since its unrealistic to suddenly expect classic summoner to just happen. And yeah people want the pretty things cuz I mean look at machinist and how many not very flashy moves it has that even copy paste some animations that have no visuals, people hate that especially for a job thats known for being a crowd pleaser like summoner.

[Nalien]

Lets be serious for a minute here... If the people here were only talking about a cosmetic "make this more cool looking" type adjustment. Yeah I could see it.

All I'm asking for. I'm perfectly fine with the current rotation, I just wish it felt like I was a Summoner, because tossing out a single pet and then pretty much doing the same rotation as my Scholar irks me... I'm not summoning, I'm barely commanding the pet ("Contagion Garuda-Egi... CONTAGION! DAMMIT GARUDA, USE CONTAGION!"), it just doesn't feel right to me... Scholar effectively using and spreading diseases to deal damage? Perfect. Summoner doing the exact same thing? Ugh...

Is it a minor issue? Perhaps, but look at it this way; Ninja used Katon/Raiton/Suiton/etc., not Fire/Lightning/Water/etc.. They gave it Ninjutsu and its own mechanics surrounding that, and that gives the Job some of its identity. Katon pretty much just is Fire II, the same way Bio, Aero and Combust are pretty much the same skill. Again though, while they all do pretty much the exact same thing, they're given their own feel, because having two Jobs with the exact same skills would be bland... Yet when we come to Scholar and Summoner that's exactly what we have... Two Jobs sharing 90% of their skills...

Honestly, the whole cross-class system annoys me for similar reasons... I loath every physical DPS sharing Invigorate, I'd much rather have seen them all get their own form of TP recovery, which ties into the Jobs identity and mechanics... Really, the only Job I'm perhaps OK with any of this on, are ones which historically just copied others... To my mind, Paladin should just make Cure effective, rather than having Clemency, and Red Mage having Aero? Sure, taking that more as an indication that cross-class skills are staying and it'll rightly be Thaumaturge/Conjurer at the moment, but it's fine, that's what Red Mage has and (IMO) should always be doing... Just like Summoner should be, you know, summoning...

Heck, "fixing" Summoner is arguably easier than other Jobs I take similar umbrage with... Bard not barding can't really be fixed as easily... That does require changing up how the Job is actually balanced, giving it actual Song utility rather than more pew-pew (hopefully new skills at least help with MP recovery...). With Summoner it's literally just an issue with the animations/names of skills...

You know... I probably wouldn't even care anymore if it weren't for Egi-Glamours... Once that got announced I started to think "Wait... This doesn't really fix the problem...", they clearly want to try and fix the issue, I just think there are better ways to go about it... Letting us pick what we summon is an improvement, don't get me wrong, but I cast Summon so infrequently that letting us customize it has very little impact IMO... Letting me shout at Ifrit-Egi instead of Garuda-Egi for failing to Contagion doesn't really change anything... Bad enough they're straight up doing it wrong, too... Text commands to swap pets? Seriously? Should have had an offhand item to determine the pet; Ruby, all your Summon skills bring out Carbuncle, Inferno Focus, all three summon Ifrit-Egi, etc., that's the kind of polish I used to expect from SE, at least... I really do expect to see Leviathan-Egi doing Aerial Blast at this rate... Not any time soon, of course...

[Talraen]

I have a question thats been sitting with me for a long time.

Why is it when summoner gets complaints that you and a lot of others instantly jump to the power of the class and how you dont want FF11? Since like summoner was not invented by 11 though it was influenced in style by 11.

We actually dont care about the power as thats not the issue, having an identity does not automatically mean "we want FF11 summoner" so what is it that makes you say we want that? Since really FF14 summoner is FF11's summoner but instead of heal oriented its DOT and damage with the cost over time to keep it summoned removed.

One would think that if people wanted to stay as far away from FF11 like it was the plague they would agree to returning to classic forms which leaves me confused to these responses.

The reason people immediately bring up FFXI is because it's the only other summoner in the entire series that makes sense in an MMO context. Though some people actually do seem to be OK with the idea of summoner being a black mage whose animations happen to involve summoned creatures (which is what summoners were in FF3-9). FFX, FFXII, and FFXIII all had summons that replace the entire party, which obviously wouldn't work in a multiplayer game.

But if you want summoner to be a job where you summon a pet, keep it out, and it does stuff, FFXI is the only model available in the Final Fantasy series.

Also, "with the cost over time to keep it summoned removed" by itself makes FFXIV summoner a completely different animal than FFXI. That aspect is completely fundamental to FFXI summons. (Or used to be at any rate.)

I miss my FFXI summoner. when i quit FFXI it was one of the jobs i had the most fun on, (i left at 75 cap not 100). I had ton's of summons and with the gear i had it was 0-1 mp a tick to keep them out. I wish FFXIV summoner was closer to FFXI summoner. At it's current state it feels like a black mage with pets.

Plus, people do actually keep asking for it.

[Khaidal]

I have a question thats been sitting with me for a long time.

Why is it when summoner gets complaints that you and a lot of others instantly jump to the power of the class and how you dont want FF11? Since like summoner was not invented by 11 though it was influenced in style by 11.

One would think that if people wanted to stay as far away from FF11 like it was the plague they would agree to returning to classic forms which leaves me confused to these responses.

I think people are bringing up FFXI because so many people are asking for a pet focused job. One where you send out the pet and it's the main source of damage, not the player character. For myself, with limited MMO experience, this would be FFXI pet jobs (BST, SMN, etc)

[Ririta]

I think people are bringing up FFXI because so many people are asking for a pet focused job. One where you send out the pet and it's the main source of damage, not the player character. For myself, with limited MMO experience, this would be FFXI pet jobs (BST, SMN, etc)

Personally when I think of a pet job I think of beast mastery hunters and unholy death knights where your rotation empowered the pet.

[basketofseals]

I think people are bringing up FFXI because so many people are asking for a pet focused job. One where you send out the pet and it's the main source of damage, not the player character. For myself, with limited MMO experience, this would be FFXI pet jobs (BST, SMN, etc)

Weren't those jobs, also Puppeteer I think, absolute garbage bottom tier for years?

[Dyvid]

I think they just need to make a whole new job called "Beastmaster"... because that appears to be what some of you want...
You some of you don't want the classic Final Fantasy Summoner... you want a Beastmaster instead... or a Petmaster class.
Those are not Classic FF Summoner or Summons.
On top of that those will wreck the current Summoner job in a way that will torque off the general Summoner population (who plays the job now)... in THIS game.
While I understand superficially linking different naming conventions to make it more Summoner Thematic, and perhaps a graffical upgrade...
... in no way can I possibly justify any kind of major mechanical rework of the job from the ground up, either Lore wise or Gameplay wise.
The class is powerful, viable, and fun to play.

I'm glad you are enjoying Summoner, truly. But I have to ask if you have tried all the other jobs out there? FFXIV's Summoner is a pet job, or at least it was so that is why people want SE to focus on Egi. Also as a side note, if Garuda is the only viable pet out there then something is wrong with the job. We told Yoshi-P 4 years ago to change contagion to a Summoner ability because it's broken having it on an Egi.

Weren't those jobs, also Puppeteer I think, absolute garbage bottom tier for years?

The only real issue people had with FFXI's Summoner was the perpetuation cost which drained your mp when a pet was out fighting. They loved the Avatar design and how all the spells was based on which pet was out. BST and PUP was also a niche job where it had it's use like soloing and stuff.