Dam. meter

[StarRosie]

Having some dicks at an event doesn't normalize being a dick, but getting rid of the event in the first place means nobody gets to partake.

I 100% agree but the dicks are only one half of the question, what do we do about the players who don't want to improve? The tool already exists and if people want to improve, they will seek it out. Or use one of the many other tools in the game already to improve. That's why I think part of the push for the official parser is more for validation. That the people who use it to perfect and polish their rotation to such a mirror shine, want to feel acknowledged and having an official parser would some how lead to that. Or I am interpreting things weirdly again. I guess I just don't see the huge boon from making an official version of something that already exists.

[Greedalox]

I 100% agree but the dicks are only one half of the question, what do we do about the players who don't want to improve? The tool already exists and if people want to improve, they will seek it out. Or use one of the many other tools in the game already to improve. That's why I think part of the push for the official parser is more for validation. That the people who use it to perfect and polish their rotation to such a mirror shine, want to feel acknowledged and having an official parser would some how lead to that. Or I am interpreting things weirdly again. I guess I just don't see the huge boon from making an official version of something that already exists.

I agree that there will be people who never want to improve, and you ask me what we're supposed to do about them- but I don't think either of us or any game developer has an answer to that. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The only incentive to getting better in content that requires 200 dps (Or less, save for a couple fights with an actual enrage in dungeons) is your instilled desire to do better. Some people are horrified of 3rd party program use, especially when some people still say that Yoshi P has a zero tolerance stance on it which isn't true. Maybe some of these people have the inner drive to want to do better, but don't necessarily want to risk breaking rules or simply don't learn well in textbook situations, like flatly reading an opener and rotation and memorizing and adapting it to all situations.

I just think that more focus on those who want to get better should take precedence over the people with absolutely zero drive to get better, seeing as they're already at their destination and someone who wants to get better is not.

[Sebazy]

IMHO SE only really have themselves to blame for the current disparity in skill level between progression raiders and the casual majority. Personally I can think of 3 ways in which SE could chose to address it.

1) Probably the most likely way forward would be to simply educate the masses better, the class quests and progression pretty much just throw new abilities at you and leave you to figure out what to do with it. In some cases it's fairly obvious and straightforward what you should be doing, but in many others, it's just like 'hey I got a new button, what do I do with it? It's quite clear that a good portion of the player base needs a nudge in the right direction for certain jobs.

2) The next approach is to simply force the player base to get good by the way of harder content. Now we all remember the drama over stuff like Steps, Ozma and Thordan EX, but I'm firmly of mind that people objected to these because they were sudden spikes of difficulty in a game that outside of coil progression and savage, was generally very easy going and forgiving. Having content gradually ramp up as you hit the end game would help alleviate these issues somewhat as well as raising the overall bar of player performance as people hit the actual end game.

3) This leads onto my third approach which is possible in some regards, and sadly unlikely in others. Yep you guessed it, SE would do well to make a players performance clearer and easier to digest. The manner in which dot damage is displayed to the player could use a rethink and of course, there are plenty of ways to clarify a players damage simply by taking data that's already there in the chat window and simply displaying it better.

Naturally I couldn't touch this topic without addressing parsing, and of course I agree that a fully featured recount style in game parser wouldn't go down well. Personally I feel that the harassment angle is significantly overplayed though, the tools to wave unwanted data in peoples faces have been in place for years now, this would really just even the playing field between PC and console players, as long as it was made clear that harassing a player over damage numbers regardless of it's source is still a reportable offence, things would be fine in my eyes.

However, there is a different approach I think SE could take with this, one that would be discrete, private and too vague to use as ammunition, but still be able to let the player know how they are performing in the grand scheme of things:

Simply put, the parameters bar (aka your HP/MP/TP bars) has an icon to the left of it that is useless. In my eyes it'd be fairly easy for SE to have an algorithm that worked out each jobs optimal single target DPS for a given iLvl, I would then take that number and break it down into sensible tiers and have the parameters bar icon display as such. For example, sub 40% of optimal DPS and you get a black icon, from 40%-60% you get bronze, 60%-80% gets you silver and 80%+ nets you gold. Aoe doesn't really need to be accurately displayed accurately really as aoeing is going to pad even a low tier player upwards which will give them the indication they are onto a good thing, this doesn't need to go into fine detail, it's purely there to show a player if they are on the right track or not.

A perhaps controversial way of taking this further would be to add achievements for hitting the various dps tiers vs end game content. Players who don't want to be called out on this stuff will typically have their achievements hidden as it's the default setting anyhow, but for those that are interested in their personal performance, it gives them something shiny to aim for and take pride in earning.

There is a 4th option of course, and that is for SE to simply let things continue as they are, but in my eyes, allowing such a disparity in playerskill to run unchecked is everybit as problematic as diving down the parsing rabbit hole. Whilst it's not really a problem in this tier, I stand firm in my belief that A4S would be nigh impossible for the overwhelming majority without either a parser within the group or optimal rotations and strategies based on data that required a parser to obtain in the first place.

[Ama_Hamada]

Oh I understand how people act and again is all about "if". Yeah, there are dicks out there, so what? Block, report and move along with your life. As I said, with your logic anything that can be used in a wrong way should be remove.

They removed the chat from "arenas" and people spam a certain emote to point out mistakes from other players, dicks keep harassaing but everyone suffer without aproper way to communicate.

it is not IF! People have prasers already! No one ever ever gave advice from having a praser, it was always used as a harassment tool. Making it official will only make it worse. The community already proved they can't handle official prasers.

Thing is, I'm actually not against parsers. But I'm not trying to ignore the human nature that'd be in full effect with them. Please refer to my earlier comment about a PvP situation. It may be different from PvE and scripted encounters, but the main point is someone tried to contend that a person who did slightly more damage than I did in a long match but scored no kills (versus my slightly less damage and 10 kills, the most of my team) performed better. Were you going to look at the damage alone, sure you could say that person did "better". What that damage actually amounted to is what really tells the real tale there. And let's not act like it's not easy to pad and fluff numbers. Let's also not act like people won't simply take things at face value "because the parser says".

Simply put: the parser might say Player A deals more damage than Player B, but Player B performed mechanics with better technical expertise, perhaps at times sacrificing damage to ensure a critical mechanic - like T8's Allagan Field on a melee - didn't complicate or wipe the party. If it's all numbers, sure take Player A and enjoy dealing with that, especially if you're a healer. Player B isn't a lesser player nor worth being overlooked or excluded (like people would do, let's not kid ourselves) simply because of numbers.

Parsers aren't the problem, the human element is, and SE knows exactly who they're dealing with. Give a man the opportunity to do wrong, and you'd be amazed how many actually do. Give an arsonist matches and watch the world burn.

Like this post, I seen people do this with healing, even on the PvP forums. People do not understand SCH cannot inflate numbers like whm does, ugh.

Naturally I couldn't touch this topic without addressing parsing, and of course I agree that a fully featured recount style in game parser wouldn't go down well. Personally I feel that the harassment angle is significantly overplayed though, the tools to wave unwanted data in peoples faces have been in place for years now, this would really just even the playing field between PC and console players, as long as it was made clear that harassing a player over damage numbers regardless of it's source is still a reportable offence, things would be fine in my eyes.

People do not care if something can be reported, they will keep going on. I was in a MSQ once where someone was pushing numbers on someone and some others told them to stop because it can be reported, and they kept doing it.

[Dualgunner]

it is not IF! People have prasers already! No one ever ever gave advice from having a praser, it was always used as a harassment tool. Making it official will only make it worse. The community already proved they can't handle official prasers.

That is a very broad statement. I assume you have figures to back that up, and of course given the absoluteness of your statement even one instance of a parser being used to help give better advice would prove you wrong.

[Ama_Hamada]

That is a very broad statement. I assume you have figures to back that up, and of course given the absoluteness of your statement even one instance of a parser being used to help give better advice would prove you wrong.

Are you joking?
No one used a praser to help someone in random DFs, only as an harassment tool. The ONLY time I seen it used as a help tool when someone asks for advance and hint asking if someone has one. Otherwise people say nothing or use it as a harassment tool. Clearly your post to me is not going to change matters so I am not sure what the point is. SE knows people can't handle having an official meter and I know that is true with what I seen in random DFs.

[Sebazy]

it is not IF! People have prasers already! No one ever ever gave advice from having a praser, it was always used as a harassment tool. Making it official will only make it worse. The community already proved they can't handle official prasers.

I'm really sorry that you feel that way but I can 100% assure you from personal experience that you are incorrect here. I'm not crazy enough to suggest that harassment never happens but I'll touch on that more in a moment.

On the flipside though, you will frequently see more casual players and raiders getting help from FC/team mates with parsers to optimise their performance so to say that 'No one ever gave advice from having a parser' is utterly untrue. Both parses and logs can be used as a tool to further both your own understanding as well as to pool that knowledge with others.

For example, early on in 3.0 I released a series of video guides with numbers and logs demonstrating how a SCH could do similar or even more damage numbers across the roulette dungeons than many actual DPS jobs. No one was flamed, no one was harassed. This was just data being presented in a clear and understandable format to help others improve their standard of play and speed up their dungeon runs significantly. There are many other examples of data helping even casual players in this game even right here on these forums. Damage rotations, fight strategies and such will all stem from this scene as well. It really isn't the boogieman you seem to feel it is.

People do not care if something can be reported, they will keep going on. I was in a MSQ once where someone was pushing numbers on someone and some others told them to stop because it can be reported, and they kept doing it.

Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but a 7-14 day temp ban generally makes people take notice pretty quickly, if people report it (which they do already), and GMs enforce it (which they also do already), players with common sense will quickly get a handle on what's acceptable and what isn't. Players without tact or common sense will quickly get banned. Win/win for everyone I'd say <3

No one used a praser to help someone in random DFs, only as an harassment tool.

And no one has ever used reddit for anything other than funny cat pictures.

I can respect more casual players having a fear of parsers, but participating in a discussion like this without taking an open mind isn't especially productive =(

[Centershock]

I 100% agree but the dicks are only one half of the question, what do we do about the players who don't want to improve? The tool already exists and if people want to improve, they will seek it out. Or use one of the many other tools in the game already to improve. That's why I think part of the push for the official parser is more for validation. That the people who use it to perfect and polish their rotation to such a mirror shine, want to feel acknowledged and having an official parser would some how lead to that. Or I am interpreting things weirdly again. I guess I just don't see the huge boon from making an official version of something that already exists.

It's an echo chamber at this point, whether you are pro-parser (and actually use it in good faith) or you are anti-parser, and the reasons behind both sides.

But the above quote is one that sticks to me the most. For me, I do not believe an in-game parser is necessary. Points have already been well-made with harassment and number-shaming (it exists whether or not you believe it) and their well-intentioned uses.

I believe that a great portion of the player base will not be not responsible enough with it should this be implemented. But please don't get it twisted. I am not against having this in-game parser, I just do not believe it is necessary.

[Misutoraru]

29 pages, it is like a dog chasing it's own tail
we will never reach an agreement with other sides
we both have out concern and evidences to support our own statements
and we both make assumption
at the end it turn out to be which side you viewing the issue on
the good out weight the bad or vice versa
but I must say I am glad that dev sharing the same stance as me

[Ama_Hamada]

I'm really sorry that you feel that way but I can 100% assure you from personal experience that you are incorrect here. I'm not crazy enough to suggest that harassment never happens but I'll touch on that more in a moment.

On the flipside though, you will frequently see more casual players and raiders getting help from FC/team mates with parsers to optimise their performance so to say that 'No one ever gave advice from having a parser' is utterlyuntrue. Both parses and logs can be used as a tool to further both your own understanding as well as to pool that knowledge with others.

For example, early on in 3.0 I released a series of video guides with numbers and logs demonstrating how a SCH could do similar or even more damage numbers across the roulette dungeons than many actual DPS jobs. No one was flamed, no one was harassed. This was just data being presented in a clear and understandable format to help others improve their standard of play and speed up their dungeon runs significantly. There are many other examples of data helping even casual players in this game even right here on these forums. Damage rotations, fight strategies and such will all stem from this scene as well. It really isn't the boogieman you seem to feel it is.



Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but a 7-14 day temp ban generally makes people take notice pretty quickly, if people report it (which they do already), and GMs enforce it (which they also do already), players with common sense will quickly get a handle on what's acceptable and what isn't. Players without tact or common sense will quickly get banned. Win/win for everyone I'd say <3



And no one has ever used reddit for anything other than funny cat pictures.

I can respect more casual players having a fear of parsers, but participating in a discussion like this without taking an open mind isn't especially productive =(

Taking random DF groups, not FC mates and statics, in those cases, it is always harassment. I am sure that is the focus of SE not allowing them as well. We all know a static would help each other???? So it should been clear what I was saying.