Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Brill_]

You guys make it sound as if people who want to farm content are such monsters because they dont want to hold every newbies hand

Because people think that everyone who hasn't cleared something yet is looking for a carry. That is simply not true. Some people just want to get up to bat. Raid finder wasn't working because queues never popped because once people get a clear, they choose the duty complete option. People can't learn if they can't even get a group of 8 to enter with. Duty finder gives people a bigger pool of players. If playing with mere mortals is unacceptable, then don't use DF.

People joining the wrong group for the goals is something that goes both ways. Players that don't have a clue what they are doing shouldn't be joining farm parties. Players that join a learning party shouldn't expect perfection. I've seen too many learning parties fall apart because someone rages over a wipe in a learning party.

[HyoMinPark]

Were you doing content you had previously completed? Based on the various Raid Finder threads, it seems that its primary use was to discriminate against people who haven't yet cleared the content.

It wasn't discrimatory. It was allowing the groups that wanted to farm be able to farm without having people who are looking for easy clears/carries to join in the group. I'm all for helping people clear, but it agitates me to see people sneak into a farm party and not even have a clear for the content. Especially when the PF description says "No Bonus." We're there to farm it, not help an individual understand the fight and clear it. The groups where we have tried to help the bonus person never resulted in a clear most of the time anyways, so all that time was just wasted. And it's extremely frustrating when all you want to do is farm some days.

I can't tell you how many PFs I ended up in where we couldn't queue into an Extreme because someone had a bonus and was trying to sneak in. Worst yet is that they didn't speak up when people asked "Who hasn't cleared? We'll help you, but we need to know who you are and how far you've gotten in the fight." If people want to learn content, make a PF for a LEARNING PARTY; I see them quite frequently when I'm browsing PF for things to do. I've joined a bunch of them just to help. Make a learning/clear party. Don't try to sneak your way into a farm; you'll just end up on people's blacklists.

It took me longer than it should have to get Thordan's and Sephirot's birds. Because so many people were joining farms without a clear, and expecting the rest of us to carry them. Even worse was some lied that they had cleared the fight on an alt. But you knew they were lying the minute you got in the duty because they died to just about everything.

Even after I have cleared, I still stick to learning groups for enough runs to understand the fight more. Because I sure as heck do not want to be carried by other players. Nidhogg Ex for example: I got my bird on my clear, and only cleared it one more time after that. I don't know at least 50% of the fight, or understand it at a level that is acceptable to me. I'm not going to join a farm and burden those who want loot and quick kills with my own inexperience. Sephirot Ex: never cleared as a healer before, always ran on either tank or bard. So I would look for more of a learning/clear to practice healing it rather than waltz into a farm party and be uncertain. Especially as a healer. (I did learn a bit more about healing SephEx, enough now to comfortably join farms.)

People in this thread keep saying "Make a PF for farm parties." Well, it goes both ways. Make a PF for learning parties. It's not like it's that hard. And you'll be paired with other like-minded people, and probably some mentors that want to teach. No one wants to teach mechanics in a farm.

[Dzian]

Were you doing content you had previously completed? Based on the various Raid Finder threads, it seems that its primary use was to discriminate against people who haven't yet cleared the content.

It's use wasn't to discriminate it was to prevent people wasting time..

Before the raid finder was put in it was virtually impossible to queue an extreme primal and actually clear it..

The addition of raid finder increased clear rates significantly.. a lot of people got a lot of clears and farmed a lot of drops using raid finder.

Putting them back in duty finder undoes that.

[Talraen]

It's use wasn't to discriminate it was to prevent people wasting time..

Before the raid finder was put in it was virtually impossible to queue an extreme primal and actually clear it..

The addition of raid finder increased clear rates significantly.. a lot of people got a lot of clears and farmed a lot of drops using raid finder.

Putting them back in duty finder undoes that.

Please explain how the option to prevent people who haven't cleared content resulted in "a lot of people got a lot of clears." I'm pretty confused by that.

[Dualgunner]

Please explain how the option to prevent people who haven't cleared content resulted in "a lot of people got a lot of clears." I'm pretty confused by that.

Because people who want to help people learn will not click "cleared". People who want clears and farms don't have to deal with teaching, meaning toxicity from frustrated people is gone, and people who want to learn are paired either with others wanting to learn or others who want to teach.

[Niqote]

Please explain how the option to prevent people who haven't cleared content resulted in "a lot of people got a lot of clears." I'm pretty confused by that.

It was fantastic to go into a fight I had not cleared and know that everyone there was of a like mind who might not understand all the mechanics. After a while you graduate and change your settings to communicate that you are almost ready to clear, then finally you clear and have the choice to move onto clear groups. It's quite valuable in building confidence.

[Dzian]

Please explain how the option to prevent people who haven't cleared content resulted in "a lot of people got a lot of clears." I'm pretty confused by that.

Using raid finder in Sophia ex. I managed to get about 50 clears quite a few weapons and couple of other bits. With a very high success rate. I think maybe 5 or 6 of the raid finder groups I joined disbanded..

Queueing seph ex or Thordan ex in duty finder. Before raid finder was added was pretty much a guaranteed waste of time.... thus no one queued it. Which is why they added rid finder in the first place

[Talraen]

Using raid finder in Sophia ex. I managed to get about 50 clears quite a few weapons and couple of other bits. With a very high success rate. I think maybe 5 or 6 of the raid finder groups I joined disbanded..

Queueing seph ex or Thordan ex in duty finder. Before raid finder was added was pretty much a guaranteed waste of time.... thus no one queued it. Which is why they added rid finder in the first place

Oh I see you meant successful wins, not first clears. In any case, while I can obviously see how this benefits you, surely you can see that it punishes many others? Having to struggle with bad parties to get a clear is better than not even being allowed to try, is it not? Especially when everyone who has the clear and could thus help you is being given a direct incentive to not help you (i.e., a higher success rate by not allowing new players).

Because people who want to help people learn will not click "cleared". People who want clears and farms don't have to deal with teaching, meaning toxicity from frustrated people is gone, and people who want to learn are paired either with others wanting to learn or others who want to teach.

Does anyone actually do this? I don't use the raid finder, but all the anecdotal evidence I've seen says no.

Also it's kind of alarming how casually people in this thread dismiss the unwashed masses. God forbid we should have to teach someone. Surely the party finder is a separate but equal method for those poor souls.

[Vidu]

Oh I see you meant successful wins, not first clears. In any case, while I can obviously see how this benefits you, surely you can see that it punishes many others? Having to struggle with bad parties to get a clear is better than not even being allowed to try, is it not? Especially when everyone who has the clear and could thus help you is being given a direct incentive to not help you (i.e., a higher success rate by not allowing new players).

And having them in DF without the option to select "clear" punishes everyone who wants to actually farm and clear that content - not somehow get the kill. Forcing experienced people to help new ones get their clears isnt a good solution - it only leads to a lot of frustration and fighting between those who would like to farm that content and those who havent even read a guide or cant even understand the simplest mechanics.
Again: It is a good function. It allows people to focus on their own progression, if they wish to do so. I shouldnt have to help everyone, sometimes it has to be okay for me to focus on my own wishes. Sophia EX is really the best example - a kill there takes 10 minutes, not the 40 minutes I spend with a kill-party a week ago. But in that case it was even fine for me to spend 40 minutes, because I was in the mood to help out, teach and explain that fight. But when I'm not but still want that bird, that HAS to be fine too. No one should be expected to play this game for the sake of others.

Does anyone actually do this? I don't use the raid finder, but all the anecdotal evidence I've seen says no.

Also it's kind of alarming how casually people in this thread dismiss the unwashed masses. God forbid we should have to teach someone. Surely the party finder is a separate but equal method for those poor souls.

Yes, I do. When I feel like helping out and teaching, I will queue for my mentor roulette, for EX-primals, raids... I will join learn and "help to kill"-parties in PF when I see them and when I have the time on my hands.
But please explain to me why it makes me such a horrible person that once in a while I'd just like to get some smooth, quick runs in?
Why do I have to teach and explain the fight everytime I queue up for it again and again and again?
Why is the progress of every new person much more important than my own goals?

[Talraen]

Yes, I do. When I feel like helping out and teaching, I will queue for my mentor roulette, for EX-primals, raids... I will join learn and "help to kill"-parties in PF when I see them and when I have the time on my hands.
But please explain to me why it makes me such a horrible person that once in a while I'd just like to get some smooth, quick runs in?

I'm not calling you, or anyone here, a bad person. I'm just pointing out that you're asking for a feature which has only one function, which is to exclude people. Square Enix's policy here seems to be to allow for this exclusion while the content is new and particularly difficult, but to open it up to everyone after a time, but even that bone thrown to newbies seems to be too much to ask.