Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Vidu]

Oh I see you meant successful wins, not first clears. In any case, while I can obviously see how this benefits you, surely you can see that it punishes many others? Having to struggle with bad parties to get a clear is better than not even being allowed to try, is it not? Especially when everyone who has the clear and could thus help you is being given a direct incentive to not help you (i.e., a higher success rate by not allowing new players).

And having them in DF without the option to select "clear" punishes everyone who wants to actually farm and clear that content - not somehow get the kill. Forcing experienced people to help new ones get their clears isnt a good solution - it only leads to a lot of frustration and fighting between those who would like to farm that content and those who havent even read a guide or cant even understand the simplest mechanics.
Again: It is a good function. It allows people to focus on their own progression, if they wish to do so. I shouldnt have to help everyone, sometimes it has to be okay for me to focus on my own wishes. Sophia EX is really the best example - a kill there takes 10 minutes, not the 40 minutes I spend with a kill-party a week ago. But in that case it was even fine for me to spend 40 minutes, because I was in the mood to help out, teach and explain that fight. But when I'm not but still want that bird, that HAS to be fine too. No one should be expected to play this game for the sake of others.

Does anyone actually do this? I don't use the raid finder, but all the anecdotal evidence I've seen says no.

Also it's kind of alarming how casually people in this thread dismiss the unwashed masses. God forbid we should have to teach someone. Surely the party finder is a separate but equal method for those poor souls.

Yes, I do. When I feel like helping out and teaching, I will queue for my mentor roulette, for EX-primals, raids... I will join learn and "help to kill"-parties in PF when I see them and when I have the time on my hands.
But please explain to me why it makes me such a horrible person that once in a while I'd just like to get some smooth, quick runs in?
Why do I have to teach and explain the fight everytime I queue up for it again and again and again?
Why is the progress of every new person much more important than my own goals?

[Talraen]

Yes, I do. When I feel like helping out and teaching, I will queue for my mentor roulette, for EX-primals, raids... I will join learn and "help to kill"-parties in PF when I see them and when I have the time on my hands.
But please explain to me why it makes me such a horrible person that once in a while I'd just like to get some smooth, quick runs in?

I'm not calling you, or anyone here, a bad person. I'm just pointing out that you're asking for a feature which has only one function, which is to exclude people. Square Enix's policy here seems to be to allow for this exclusion while the content is new and particularly difficult, but to open it up to everyone after a time, but even that bone thrown to newbies seems to be too much to ask.

[Dzian]

I'm not calling you, or anyone here, a bad person. I'm just pointing out that you're asking for a feature which has only one function, which is to exclude people. Square Enix's policy here seems to be to allow for this exclusion while the content is new and particularly difficult, but to open it up to everyone after a time, but even that bone thrown to newbies seems to be too much to ask.

it doesn't exclude anyone though. there's a practice option in the raid finder which you should use if you wantto practice.... just because that option is going to put you with people who also want to practice and not with people who will just carry you does not mean you are excluded in any way....

I got my first clears for Sophia zurvan and even nidhogg using the raid finders practice options,,, there is no way I was excluded from the content.

the only thing I was excluded from was farm parties. but as I hadn't cleared the fight I was in no way ready to farm it....

[Vidu]

I'm not calling you, or anyone here, a bad person. I'm just pointing out that you're asking for a feature which has only one function, which is to exclude people. Square Enix's policy here seems to be to allow for this exclusion while the content is new and particularly difficult, but to open it up to everyone after a time, but even that bone thrown to newbies seems to be too much to ask.

Yes, because the content still requires you to do mechanics and know the fight - we're not that overgeared yet. And because some people still want to farm that content to get their birds or weapons or whatever. Again: The progression of newbies shouldnt be more important then the progression of anyone else. The feature is in place to seperate those who want fast, quick kills and those who are okay with learning and slow progression (or need to learn the fight and should therefore be okay with learning)
That "bone" you're throwing there - thats "my" time. (not actually mine, but you get the idea, I hope)

[Talraen]

it doesn't exclude anyone though.

Literally the function of that checkbox is to make it so certain people won't be able to join your party. That's the definition of exclusion.

Again: The progression of newbies shouldnt be more important then the progression of anyone else.

Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

[Dzian]

Literally the function of that checkbox is to make it so certain people won't be able to join your party. That's the definition of exclusion..

they might not be able to join a farm party which is clearly beyond there capabilities if they haven't cleared the content yet...

but it doenst exclude them from the content. they can still join practice parties or even parties seeking completion both of which would be better suited to that palyer than a farm party..

anyone expecting to join a farm party and get a clear instead of joining a clear party or a learning party basically just wants to get carried.. its this amentality that has lead to the whole "no bonus" culture, because players just aren't honest and don't want to join parties that actually fit there abilities and instead expect carries..

[Feidam]

He isn't talking about farm parties or clear parties in the party finder. He is talking about the ability within the raid finder to only allow those that have cleared. Just FYI.

[Vidu]

He isn't talking about farm parties or clear parties in the party finder. He is talking about the ability within the raid finder to only allow those that have cleared. Just FYI.

Yes and that allows farms while using the RF
and it allows farm parties to make sure that everyone has the clear before queueing up for the content. If one person in the group doesnt has the clear, but you select that option, the game wont let you queue up. If that happens you can remove the bonus-person before getting into the content, making it more likely for the rest of the group to stick around.

[Cadmar]

Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

Then the majority should work together to accomplish their goals. In the long run, that will feel a lot better than joining a farm party and be carried knowing that they contributed very little to the overall success of the party.

[Vidu]

Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

1) Not everyone who doesnt has cleared a certain type of content, even WANTS or can (by can I mean: having the "personal" skill, as in being good enough by themself) clear that content - so the number that would actually be intresting is "How many people want to clear said content but havent yet?" (Judging by the amount of learn vs. farm parties I see in DF... there seem to be a lot more people who want to farm than those who want/need to clear)
2) Now that we have established that a good amount of clearless people might not even care for the clear, lets rethink "majority should be most important" - that sounds appealingly true at first, but is it? I say: Its not. Most often those people who are raiding/doing ex-primals are those who are really invested into the game, might have been for years and hopefully for SE will continue to stay loyal to the game. Giving reasons to farm those fights (for example the mounts - and even more so with HW now: Kill the primal 99 times, get the mount) almost screams "Farm me!" To keep this playerbase, who is actually intrested in that, happy by giving them the means to make farming easier (RF-clear-option) is a pretty good move by SE
3) You're focussed on the benefits of the newbies - but do they really benefit from getting paird up with impatient people who want a fast clear and will get upset at them because they're failing easy mechanics? No, they dont benefit from that. By seperating those people from those who are new (and those who are willing to teach/take it slower) the toxic behaviour in those fights gets reduced

Also to clear this up: Is your issue that less people are queueing for the content with RF (because you've got two queues) or is your issue that people who havent cleared it ar less likely to be lumped together with those who have?
Because if its the later it sounds a lot like "It is more difficult for newbies to get carried in DF" and not "Its more difficult for them to see the fight".
Expecting a carry and being upset when that doesnt happen anymore... phew...