As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[Sebazy]

It's starting to sound like I'm the only one who's actually quite happy with Cleric Stance the way it is.

Oh you're certainly not, it's arguably the main difficulty factor that separates healers now given the comparative ease of this tier. The problem is as things currently stand, it puts off more casual players from using healer DPS abilities in group content and there's no system in place to actively reward or teach them otherwise outside of very basic dps dummies/SSS. Removing the need for it at the same time as adding utility and value to the healer DPS abilities would be in line with removing the DPS reduction on foes for bards. It won't please everyone (And I STILL see bards that refuse to sing it) but it would help move things forward for sure.

Making DPSing more rewarding without also making it more accessible to the masses won't achieve much unless they blow the rewards out of proportion imo.

[Judge_Xero]

Removing the need for it at the same time as adding utility and value to the healer DPS abilities would be in line with removing the DPS reduction on foes for bards. It won't please everyone (And I STILL see bards that refuse to sing it) but it would help move things forward for sure.

Hmmmm? I may be confused on your wording but Foes doesn't give BRD a DPS reduction like Ballad/Paeon. I do see your other points though that nothing other than the player base really enforces the Healer DPS Meta outside of solo content.

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Creating a mini-game within the healing tools for healers to manage outside of DPS while increasing required healing seems like a fun idea. I still just worry about healers that can barely heal Creator Savage while others are able to DPS the majority of the time while keeping everyone up.

At least what we see currently with the healer DPS meta is that the healing requirements are pretty low so:
- healers that struggle just to heal can keep up
- healers that are more skilled can keep everyone alive while fitting in DPS where they can
- Top tier healers can just DPS 90% of the time

How would that get addressed so that we don't have players coming back here asking for the healing requirements get nerfed because they keep getting kicked from statics for not being able to keep everyone alive?

[Feyona]

Hmmmm? I may be confused on your wording but Foes doesn't give BRD a DPS reduction like Ballad/Paeon. I do see your other points though that nothing other than the player base really enforces the Healer DPS Meta outside of solo content.

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At least what we see currently with the healer DPS meta is that the healing requirements are pretty low so:
- healers that struggle just to heal can keep up
- healers that are more skilled can keep everyone alive while fitting in DPS where they can
- Top tier healers can just DPS 90% of the time

How would that get addressed so that we don't have players coming back here asking for the healing requirements get nerfed because they keep getting kicked from statics for not being able to keep everyone alive?

3 levels of difficulty, instead of a huge leap from hard to extreme and normal to savage if I was doing the first two id still like a mount tho, because id still be putting 100% effort into it. Saying that tho normal is a joke how easy it is now I can dps alot of it, but it wasnt at first. Also some of this ability to dps comes from being in a good group like tanks using cds and dps staying alive. Its not really so clear cut as just the healer's skill level.

[Judge_Xero]

3 levels of difficulty, instead of a huge leap from hard to extreme and normal to savage if I was doing the first two id still like a mount tho, because id still be putting 100% effort into it. Saying that tho normal is a joke how easy it is now I can dps alot of it, but it wasnt at first. Also some of this ability to dps comes from being in a good group like tanks using cds and dps staying alive. Its not really so clear cut as just the healer's skill level.

I was wanting to look at how things would work if the healing requirements were much higher where the potential for DPS is 0 and all healers can focus on is keeping people alive and how difficult that would be to balance.

So minimum ilvl Creator Savage: i255
A12S = 50% DPS uptime MH and 90% DPS uptime OH 70% combined DPS uptime with 80% Combined Healing uptime (HOTS, PET Etc) @ 4200 HPS

This group has the potential to increase their HPS by an additional 2.1k HPS @ i255 for a total 6300 HPS

VS Max ilvl i270
A12S = 0% DPS uptime MH and 40% DPS uptime OH 20% combined DPS uptime with 95% combined healing uptime @ 4400 HPS (3200 HPS if converted to i255)

This group has the potential to increase their HPS by 800 HPS @ i270 for a total of 5200 HPS (3800 HPS if converted to i255)

If the raids were tuned to the healing requirement of the max healing potential of skilled players then team 2 would need 20% Echo @ i270 to reach the healing potential of team 1 @ i255 without Echo.

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Sure 3 levels of difficulty would be nice, but IMO wasted resources because most wouldn't touch the highest tier of difficulty and those who did would complain that it's impossible to heal.

But the main thing I'm asking is how would you lessen the skill gap between average and skilled players where you allow average players to beat content and reduce DPS windows for skilled players.

[Feyona]

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Sure 3 levels of difficulty would be nice, but IMO wasted resources because most wouldn't touch the highest tier of difficulty and those who did would complain that it's impossible to heal.

But the main thing I'm asking is how would you lessen the skill gap between average and skilled players where you allow average players to beat content and reduce DPS windows for skilled players.

Does t have to be attuned to the very max healing potential, or are you allowed to take a breather for two second? After all humans arnt always so precise about movement. You still got your absorbs as well im guessing you didnt count them in your calculation. Smart though, Im not a numbers person myself. As for three difficulties Id think it would be set at a difficulty level that people according to statistics could do

[Judge_Xero]

Does t have to be attuned to the very max healing potential, or are you allowed to take a breather for two second?

What I wanted to illustrate was sort of how the healer DPS meta formed. Absolutely we are allowed to take a breather for two seconds which is how SE inadvertently created healer DPS windows.

The key point is that my comparison was between skilled i255 max healing output VS i270 low/average potential with most players somewhere in between. What does this mean?

TLDR: Even if average players don't have the skill to even heal through content, skilled players are still going to DPS a lot.

After all humans arnt always so precise about movement. You still got your absorbs as well im guessing you didnt count them in your calculation. Smart though, Im not a numbers person myself. As for three difficulties Id think it would be set at a difficulty level that people according to statistics could do[/QUOTE]

When we look at how DPS checks are balanced with enrages and burst checks in savage, is there any reason not to balance healers as strictly if they only had a healing kit? Would it really be unfair if at below minimum ilvl healers would need 90%+ throughput to keep up, when the DPS classes are expected to push at that level anyway?

It would not be unfair at all IMO except when you look at how skilled healers create current DPS windows, VS others who struggle to simply heal.
(i.e. 3000 HPS with just regens combined with an extra 3000 HPS from just raw heals VS C2 spam with 50% overheal)

This also effects how healers would manage to heal/do mechanics if the healing requirements were higher. Skilled players may not be able to heal/dps but average players wont be able to heal/mechanics.

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Sebazy reminded me of this bringing up T1 btw. I wasn't a healer in BCOB so I never got to experience but I do remember the snakes hitting really hard to the point where:

- People needed to bait tail swipes to reduced some attacks on the tanks
- coordinating keeping regens on both tanks
- tanks cycling CD's to reduce average DTPS
- even @ i90 the Tank Kite strat where people would rejoin the two snakes and then have a tank kite/sprint around the arena while both healer tried to keep him alive waiting for LB to build. Healers at max ilvl still struggle with the heal check of T1 to the point the kite strat was made. Then OMG T2 most teams couldn't even beat without the Enrage strat because the healers couldn't even start to think about keeping up.

But yeah, it's not like we are even talking about mere 2 second windows here. One of A12s' many huge DPS windows is just shy of 30 seconds long (In this case, between inceptions and fountains) with nothing but 3k auto attacks every few seconds . That's a huge amount of time for two healers to be stood about scratching their arses whilst Eos and a Regen takes care of things.

Exactly, and yet there's healers who can't grasp the level of damage going out at that point not realizing that a regen will cover the damage, who continually spam Benefic/Cure/Physic etc.

Imagine if it was 12k per hit, do you think most people could time a heal between two 12k hits and a 20k Divine Spear, and then have the tank topped and shielded for Punishing Heat?

Then consider the level of MP efficiency that would require, lol

[Sebazy]

Hmmmm? I may be confused on your wording but Foes doesn't give BRD a DPS reduction like Ballad/Paeon.

Ooops nope you've got me there, I have it in my head something got changed with foes recently to make it less impactful on the brd themselves? Can't put my finger on it tho, guess 2 would be a cast time reduction or such?

But yeah, it's not like we are even talking about mere 2 second windows here. One of A12s' many huge DPS windows is just shy of 30 seconds long (In this case, between inceptions and fountains) with nothing but 3k auto attacks every few seconds . That's a huge amount of time for two healers to be stood about scratching their arses whilst Eos and a Regen takes care of things.

[Kitfox]

This also effects how healers would manage to heal/do mechanics if the healing requirements were higher. Skilled players may not be able to heal/dps but average players wont be able to heal/mechanics.

I feel like this is no different from DPS classes as it is. Some people can do a perfect dummy rotation but can't keep their DPS up with movement and mechanics. The only additional hurdle for healers is the risk involved with Cleric Stance, and that's probably something they should remove if they dramatically increase the healing load. That would mean healers would be as able as dps classes to do their healing "rotation" during mechanics while also having a fluid option of avoiding overheal with offensive GCDs, instead of the danger of mechanical mistake + Cleric penalty screwing them over twice as bad. This would also be in line with the changes they said would be coming to the DPS classes with the easing of buff up keep, such as Enochian.

[Sebazy]

- even @ i90 the Tank Kite strat

That and the T2 enrage strat were absolute abominations, I'm so glad my group never resorted to either <3

[Kitfox]

Creating a mini-game within the healing tools for healers to manage outside of DPS while increasing required healing seems like a fun idea. I still just worry about healers that can barely heal Creator Savage while others are able to DPS the majority of the time while keeping everyone up.

At least what we see currently with the healer DPS meta is that the healing requirements are pretty low so:
- healers that struggle just to heal can keep up
- healers that are more skilled can keep everyone alive while fitting in DPS where they can
- Top tier healers can just DPS 90% of the time

How would that get addressed so that we don't have players coming back here asking for the healing requirements get nerfed because they keep getting kicked from statics for not being able to keep everyone alive?

When we look at how DPS checks are balanced with enrages and burst checks in savage, is there any reason not to balance healers as strictly if they only had a healing kit? Would it really be unfair if at below minimum ilvl healers would need 90%+ throughput to keep up, when the DPS classes are expected to push at that level anyway?

If they wanted to make healers more healing centric, I think they should do that. They can't really get rid of the offensive side of healers though, since gear progression will increase that portion, and it would result in idle time for the top players. But increasing healing requirements across the board outside of mechanical bursts wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. I do think that would require making the healing toolkits more interesting though, as the bread and butter heals are still just the basic HoT + cure/benefic/physick, which is incredibly bland if that is what you're required to spam for the majority of the time.