The Final Reason on why we have more DPS than Tanks or Healers

[St0rmchild]

So think really log and hard about dedicated tanks and healers who get no new job to slog the first week of stormblood in. I want to play red mage, but im going to do story as smn or blm. Ive seen this happen in hw, and was one of those level the new shiny first ty[es/ Thhe best approach is to let others server first that 7p while youre already got a full set of tome gear in the time it took them to start story. because "no new tanks and no new healers make career tanks and healers something something."

I'm actually stoked there are no new healers and tanks in Stormblood.

It means that from day 1, there's a stable base of both of them going into the expansion, people who know what the hell they're doing on their jobs, unlike with HW, where I met far too many toy healers unable to keep their groups alive (and without a clue why they'd even need crossclass skills) -- and I still meet far too many (undergeared) toy DRK's without ANY crossclass levels (Money quote: "I don't need Provoke, I have Unmend!") unable to maintain even small pull aggro even in dungeons.

So going into Stormblood, there's going to be a reliable base of healers that know what they can do, when to do it, and why - and the same for tanks.

So no, I don't mind the lack of new tank/heal jobs - I'd much rather have fewer new jobs that are actually well designed and offer new synergies rather than a flood of "it's like job X but not as we know it" additions.

[Mejingjard]

If you compare with other MMOs, Tanks on FF14 are in pretty decent numbers. Some are really fun to play, when you take time to masterize them.
They simply tag with their friends.
For exemple, I almost never run roulette without one or 2 friends in my party. And I bet I'm far for being the only one doing this.
Why ? Because most of the time they want to avoid random squishy tanks. And I want to avoid uneffective DPS.

I read something about how artificial DPS checks are, but honestly I wish there were more of them, even on trashs mobs. Because when you see a SMN only doing Ruin at lvl 60, you souldn't be able to complete the mission.
And yes, most people choose DPS to see big numbers (that's why I dont understand slacking players on thoses roles).
I choose tank because I like big numbers, but in my HP bar

[Gemina]

I'm actually stoked there are no new healers and tanks in Stormblood.

It means that from day 1, there's a stable base of both of them going into the expansion, people who know what the hell they're doing on their jobs, unlike with HW, where I met far too many toy healers unable to keep their groups alive (and without a clue why they'd even need crossclass skills) -- and I still meet far too many (undergeared) toy DRK's without ANY crossclass levels (Money quote: "I don't need Provoke, I have Unmend!") unable to maintain even small pull aggro even in dungeons.

So going into Stormblood, there's going to be a reliable base of healers that know what they can do, when to do it, and why - and the same for tanks.

So no, I don't mind the lack of new tank/heal jobs - I'd much rather have fewer new jobs that are actually well designed and offer new synergies rather than a flood of "it's like job X but not as we know it" additions.

Quite a few career tanks and healers are about to hop onto the SAM and RDM boats because they are their "true' mains. Is it the same case for them? Especially if they have limited experience playing a DPS role? This is a legitimate question and not an argument. I have very limited experience playing as DPS.

A big burden that healers and tanks carry is that their mistakes are far more visible to others. If a DPS lets a buff drop, or isn't in proper position to optimize damage, the only one that generally notices are them. When I've run as tank or healer, I have no clue when a DPS member muffs their rotation. I only notice when things take longer to kill than normal, which requires very crappy DPS; or when a DPS member requires more heals than the tank, which might be the tank's fault. If you screw up as a healer or tank though? Prepare to start over.

In this sense tanks and healers carry a heavy burden, but it is still on the DPS to kill that which wants to eat the healer and the tank. I totally get why DPS want to see those big numbers, because they are the sole indicator of how well they are doing their job.

That said, the effect of low experience DPS players queueing in 50+ content will be felt just as much, if not more than new tanks and healers in HW. The reason being with HW, the extra jobs started at 30, and this is still very much training wheel content. 50+ though, these training wheels should be a distant memory. I believe there will be skilled players, particularly current DPS players, who pick up things quickly, but for every one of them, expect at least two of the opposite.

[ZioSerpe]

I'm sorry but I disagree. As a tank main (been one for 12 years between WoW, FF) I will always live by the concept that there's nothing easier thank tanking. We do least mechanics and usually they are set in stone and we hardly have to adjust. People perceive tanking as wrong and it makes them scared of trying, but really is a job that takes less time to master and has to deal with less variables...
On the other hand healers, holy fuck, I don't know how you do it, having to do your part and account for everyone else shortcoming, you will always have my praise

[LalaRu]

Hi all, OP here.

First and foremost, I've to say THANK YOU to everyone participated the discussion so far. A lot of good points were made, and even the disagreement were made civil and with reasons, this alone makes the forum a point forward than other ones elsewhere.

Then, I've now to clear something about the OP, as some if you already noticed (and played along with), there were some irony in it, and maybe even joking a little on what happens today on our daily experiences on DF. Lines as "focus heal who doesn't know mechanics" and "know he will be blamed for anything goes wrong" got a place there to make it more clear, but a fast reading maybe made someone missing them and taking me too much seriously.

Now, here comes what I think about the topic, in order to clear if I'm joking or not on some points.

First thing, I think a party is a group of players that collaborate themselves in order to reach a goal. Collaboration is the keyword. Today I see little to no collaboration at all. Players are hissing each other, and waiting the errors of the others for a blame, or just ditching the party when composition does not meets some expectations.

Now, expectations are one of the main points of the troubles on DF. Veterans expecting to play with players on same level, but it will never happen on DF. When I read the forum about what happens in DF, it seems all and everyone have A12S in farm mode. But reality check (called the "March 2017 census") shows how things are: more or less, only 3% of the population of a server cleared it. Three percent. If you have to expect something in your matched DF party, it is more reasonable meet with average/subpar player 97% of the times. When I am being matched with skilled players, I think to be on the lucky side of the rng gods.

Then, about roles. Yes, each one have its weight, to me does not exists a role more or less important than the other: we all are there for a reason. The only fact we cannot deny, is when dps is lacking in something, it is tenfold less noticeable than what may be on the tanking or healing side. Unless you are overgeared for the duty, as dps you cannot think to eat the mobs you aggro, and a tank failing on it, is immediately noticed. Same for the healing, so obvious that with it lacking, the wipes are just a step away. Slow dps instead, is just mobs dying more slowly. Dps is noticed when it is so slow that tanks run out of CDs and healers of mana, and this is quite rare. Happens, but rare. About dps checks, today we have so easy access to high ilevel stuff, that them will be a thing just on raids, hardly the dps check are missed on duties even with subpar dps. Again, it may happen but it is rare.

Again, thank you all!

[ErryK]

snip

A single DPS in an 8-man does about 2,000+~ if they're decent, there are situations where it might be less, but this is the guideline. Tanks, realistically only Warrior though, can do up to 2,000 as well. Healers can go up to 2,000 as well from what I've seen.

Tanks deal damage, yes. But they're expected to deal damage in their damage stance, not within their tank stance, they're also expected to have their high-damaging skills (ie. Carve & Spit, Fell Cleave) buffed to the max in any way possible when used. This is why NIN is part of the meta, because not only can it take advantage of slashing debuff, but also boost the aggro of a DPS stance tank's opener. Healers are expected to deal damage whenever possible, regardless of the fact of sitting there and not doing anything, and on top of this, if you choose to use a GCD on a damage skill over a healing skill and it cost the life of let's say 3 people... that's a huge responsibility... because you potentially might have caused a wipe in 4-man content, I say potentially because I've seen people bounce back with just the healer alive.

[Lesan]

DPS are forced into the genre with bloated HP pools in enemies and artificial "deal x damage or wipe" mechanics. Just see all those discussions that sparked during Gordias and DPS checks - one of the most common reasons for DPS checks is that "or else people would go with only tanks and healers".

In fact, I'd say that the genre would be more interesting without DPS. Tanks relies on healers, healers relies on tanks, there's an obvious synergy there. DPS? You have no way nor/or need to help tanks or healers, you just do your own thing like in a single player game.

Thats why back when I played The Secret World, the game made clear what they expect people to bring. To unlock the highest difficulty mode, a tank had to bring selfheal and stuns, to interrupt boss skills. The healer had to heal, and bring a debuff cleanse. And the DPS had to bring an ability to purge buffs from the boss.

[Zojha]

DPS are forced into the genre with bloated HP pools in enemies and artificial "deal x damage or wipe" mechanics.

Do you think so?

Let's remove DPS, aka damage dealers from the game then. This means that you also remove damage from the game, as anything that is able to deal damage is a damage-dealer and we just removed those from the game. Let's see what happens.

*crystal ball mode*
Everyone stays at full HP forever. Tanks cannot mitigate any damage since there are no enemy DPS anymore, healers cannot heal anything since there is no damage to undo anymore and aggro doesn't matter because nobody takes damage anyway, as all damage dealers and thus damage has been removed. Since you have no damage either, every enemy is invincible.

Congratulations, you broke the game. Got any more bright ideas?

Wanna know what really forces DPS into the game? Health. Because damage is a means to reduce health. And without damage, both tanks and healers break. Everything irreparably breaks. Damage dealers are a necessity. In contrast, you can remove tanks and healers and only need to adjust a few numbers, because only health and damage matter. Both of these roles exist for no sake but their own. They are superfluous. And because they are superfluous, they are ditched for DPS whenever possible, aka the DPS meta.

It's the cold, harsh truth of the trinity. People crack it up to far more than it really is.

[Kazrah]

Is it bad that I keep reading people saying how every role as important as "#allrolesmatter"?

As far as tank and healer damage goes, I feel like there should be a happy medium where both should be encourage to do a bit extra damage out of boredom, not because they're required to. That was tried in Gordias Savage, where healers HAD to dps and tanks had to max out their damage, and it went HORRIBLY!! Even Yoshi admitted to this because some jobs just couldn't cut the mustard there.

Yes, DPS are important, but only because enrage timers and impatient morons are things.

[Ririta]

Let's remove DPS, aka damage dealers from the game then. This means that you also remove damage from the game, as anything that is able to deal damage is a damage-dealer and we just removed those from the game. Let's see what happens.

Please don't bend the meaning of the term for the sake of an argument, "DPS" as a role is clearly defined in the genre and this game. And has been for over a decade.

And honestly, Guild Wars 2 already spoke so much on what happens when you remove tanks and healers. If you want a clusterfuck with zero strategy or teamwork, then removing tanks and healers is the way to go.