Why are summoners so neglected?

[Lambdafish]

I would really hate this, personally. It's probably a really good decision from an ease-of-design perspective, but it would even further remove any interest I have in playing the job. Honestly, I think they need to have two different, parallel paths for SMN - the "trance" variant that a lot of people really like, and a pet-focused one for other people.

SMN makes a pretty bad pet job conceptually anyway. I agree with what you are saying, however I think that that would result in two different jobs. My absolute ideal scenario is designing SMN around the trance element, at the same time as introducing BST as the pet focused job that everyone wants SMN to be. SMN right now is caught between a rock and a hard place because people want it to feel like a SMN and be pet focused, and that is not feasible (no matter what FFXI has people believe).

Edit: oops, didn't even read Kazrahs post and we pretty much said the exact same thing xD

[Shurrikhan]

SMN makes a pretty bad pet job conceptually anyway. I agree with what you are saying, however I think that that would result in two different jobs. My absolute ideal scenario is designing SMN around the trance element, at the same time as introducing BST as the pet focused job that everyone wants SMN to be.

Personally I'd like for the SMN pets to be this sort of fluid pool of external elemented mana that's easily swappable and hyper-mobile (in the sense that its hitbox spreads or ghosts as necessary to move into range to attack any target up to 10 yalms beyond its normal maximum without actually becoming impossible to focus down or CC), while BST uses actual pets who synergize highly with the SMN in their actual, visible toolkit (swapping places with them, tossing enemies into the master's attacks, etc.). I've always imagined BST as a dual axe or spear-wielder just because whips have always seemed a bit too distant and disengaged from the heat of the fight to pull off that sort of synergy. Similarly, I've always imagined most of the core Aetherflow abilities as being pet-dependent or pet-differentiated, AF being spendable on burst casts or pet buffs, and Aetherflow generating particular, synergizing elements via Aethertrail based on the pet used to contribute to its Trace (e.g. Fire, Wind, Unaspected -> Phoenix Trance; any two non-synergizing pairs of opposite elements create Dreadwyrm Trance; more AF stacks overall).

SMN right now is caught between a rock and a hard place because people want it to feel like a SMN and be pet focused, and that is not feasible (no matter what FFXI has people believe).

I'll repeat again, though: the only issue with a pet-based SMN is the pet movement controls, a part of the particulars or execution of the idea, that it's currently susceptible to. Fix those and there's no necessary compromise or failure. We may yet see SAM thrown out as a "critical conceptual error" just for having ani-locked movement, and that wouldn't quite be the whole truth either; there would have yet been ways to balance that ani-lock, showing that the true issue was the lack of eventive movement manipulation, not the ani-lock itself. I wish people would assume that just because a design failed to allow for a particular concept to feel "right" that the concept itself must be broken or impossible.

[Stitches1974]

I'll repeat again, though: the only issue with a pet-based SMN is the pet movement controls,

Lets see.

Issues that I see with SMN.

1. Pet does not follow you close enough. Multiple times where my pet has been locked out of a boss fight because of this.
2. Pet abilities are slow when pet is on obey and a player manually activates them ( contagion ).
3. Pet obey system needs to be reworked. Pet should not attack until the SMN is hit or attacks a mob. Currently, when the tank attacks a mob, my pet starts to auto attack said mob even when not in the fighting area. See number 1.
4. Garuda needs to needs to maintain a set distance from the SMN and mob. Half the time when I use enkindle, the pet is out of range. When enkindle it activated, pet needs to move closer to the SMN, then move to mob and use said ability. If SMN is on 1 side of the room and pet is on the other, that's an issue, unless the pet is given the command to stay there. Pet needs to follow the SMN even when in combat. SMN should not have to chase their pet down or command it to stop attacking in the middle of a fight.
5. SE needs to fix specific instance bugs with SMN pets. Instances like Praetorium and Castrum, when you come out of a cutscene to kill the final boss, the SMN pet just poofs and now you have to re-summon it.

[Synrin]

Lets see. Issues that I see with SMN.

This is just Garuda-egi being very naughty in general. Sometimes I feel like rolling with Ifrit just because he does ok on sic, and because he is always there attacking the mob/boss.

[Stitches1974]

This is just Garuda-egi being very naughty in general. Sometimes I feel like rolling with Ifrit just because he does ok on sic, and because he is always there attacking the mob/boss.

Agree. I'd rather use Ifrit, but contagion. Fix garuda and the poofing issue and it would be great.

[Ririta]

Agree. I'd rather use Ifrit, but contagion. Fix garuda and the poofing issue and it would be great.

It's about time that it got removed from Garuda and replaced Tri Bind as a summoner spell.

Other abilities are ok because they don't need agility to be executed.

To be honest I'd rather not complain about those things to not send the wrong message.

Dont get me wrong, not here to defend anyone or attacking someone's opinion. In fact the SMN was in ARR worse (IMO), beside being only viable with his dots and pet. I think, they did pretty well in HW with SMN, he got his own way and gamestyle. So let's say atleast they saved the SMN from his miserable state in ARR.

And to the BRD topic.. I main it since 2.0 times. I didnt change it and I still wont. In fact the Wanderers Minuett effect was new, I had to get used to it. But everyone who stopped Bard cause of it, is in my eyes just crying over things without trying or giving a bit time to it. Im not saying BRD is perfect right now, some things need to be adjusted still... Like Bloodletter resetting twice while casting something, etc. But I appreciate BRD as it is. It definetly is fun.

But ARR summoner was the best caster for literally every content before 2.4, it was so well designed that it was both mobile and useful while pulling competitive DPS (if not the best in the case of 2.0).

Summoner was only sad in the end of ARR because black mage got buffed too much, those buffs in 2.3 and then designing FCoB fights with little movement and high uptime.

Unless you're talking about gameplay, which, to me, Dreadwyrm Trance is still unpreferable as it's not really a style, it doesn't permanently changes our rotation like Enochian or Blood of the Dragon.

Again, this is just my opinion on gameplay, I much prefer the passive damage from ARR than this mixed thing that they got going on with HW. If you don't have Tri Disaster avaliable for some reason it's still better than spam Ruin III in Dreadwyrm Trance than setting up each DOT.

[Stitches1974]

It's about time that it got removed from Garuda and replaced Tri Bind as a summoner spell.

Other abilities are ok because they don't need agility to be executed.

To be honest I'd rather not complain about those things to not send the wrong message.

Yes, Contagion needs to be a SMN spell and not a pet ability. I also agree tri-bind needs to go as well.

[Shurrikhan]

Lets see.

Issues that I see with SMN.

1. Pet does not follow you close enough. Multiple times where my pet has been locked out of a boss fight because of this.
2. Pet abilities are slow when pet is on obey and a player manually activates them ( contagion ).
3. Pet obey system needs to be reworked. Pet should not attack until the SMN is hit or attacks a mob. Currently, when the tank attacks a mob, my pet starts to auto attack said mob even when not in the fighting area. See number 1.
4. Garuda needs to needs to maintain a set distance from the SMN and mob. Half the time when I use enkindle, the pet is out of range. When enkindle it activated, pet needs to move closer to the SMN, then move to mob and use said ability. If SMN is on 1 side of the room and pet is on the other, that's an issue, unless the pet is given the command to stay there. Pet needs to follow the SMN even when in combat. SMN should not have to chase their pet down or command it to stop attacking in the middle of a fight.
5. SE needs to fix specific instance bugs with SMN pets. Instances like Praetorium and Castrum, when you come out of a cutscene to kill the final boss, the SMN pet just poofs and now you have to re-summon it.

Not sure how any of those contest my point, if that was the purpose? They are all pet movement issues (problems in execution), and were they resolved, there would be no issues with the idea (the concept itself) of a pet-based SMN.

Consider, for instance, if:
1. Pet's used a stretch hitbox (not sure if XIV has any examples of this, but it's used for anti-lag in other MMOs), allowing them to burst-move into range for attacks without being able to "blink-dodge" out of enemy attack range.
2. Pets used an internal resource for added movement speed, effectiveness tapering as the resource falls from cap, which regenerates while standing still.
3. All specials have greater range than basic attacks.
4. When your pet disappears due to range, it is automatically resummoned at your position at no cost or delay.
5. Pets used mergeable animations for, or could simultaneously cast, abilities triggered during basic casts.
5b. Or simply, abilities could cancel basic attacks for instant use.
6. You could reliably trigger pet abilities during your own casts. (Intermittent for me...)

The sad thing is that with as little tactical variation as the pet's positioning actually creates, it'd still be there only for:
1. Tanking
2. Simultaneous casting
3. To increase SMN apm by having the SMN move it about to keep it safe.

[Stitches1974]

Not sure how any of those contest my point, if that was the purpose?

You said:

I'll repeat again, though: the only issue with a pet-based SMN is the pet movement controls

You didn't say movement issues. You said movement controls. Movement controls would be like pet hold, sic, and obey. If you just said fix obey, I would have agreed with you 100%, but it's not just an obey issue.

For your other points, I agree with them except number 1. Personally, I want to pet closer to the mob before it starts attacking, as they can still be locked out of a fight and I have to spend time to recast. That issue could be solved with A. Pet stays close to it's owner at all times ( currently I have to run farther into the fighting area than I like before the tank aggros the boss ) or B. unless I get hit or I attack, that pet shouldn't do anything when on obey.

The instance bug would still need to be addressed though, as the pet is not out of range. It just poofs for no reason.

[Ririta]

because people want it to feel like a SMN and be pet focused, and that is not feasible (no matter what FFXI has people believe).

People don't have a consensus on this topic. Each person wants it to be a thing. The only thing you'll see me complaining about is the lack of new egis and spells to buff such egis - as in, what they set out to do in 2.0 and what made me like the job in the first place.

I don't appreciate the 180º that they did in Heavensward. I imagine that bards had a similar disappointment.