DualShocker Interview - 3.5 pt 2 next week, supposedly

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Honestly, I think the existance of WAR and SCH in general are to blame. There shouldn't be a tank or healer that are designed to DPS. Imagine the game where your two options were DRK and PLD, would DPS be considered as much?

Currently? Absolutely. In fact, people would double Dark Knight in that case because it pulls higher DPS in the off tank role. A good Dark Knight can nip at the heels of a Warrior provided they have a Ninja. As for Scholar, some groups go Astro/White Mage and you're still expected to be DPSing on either. Damage is everything in this game regardless of the job you play.

[Evergrey]

Damage is everything in this game regardless of the job you play.

But DMG doesn't have to be everything. If people just relaxed a little and enjoyed the content instead of rushing it. Everything is manageable even without tank/healer dps.

But, this is a game, and people have done the same thing over and over and over. So it's only natural that people want to rush through it so they don't have to spend more time doing it.
It's hard to keep everything new and fresh. That's why alot of people take a break so they don't tire themselves out with the same content over and over.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

But DMG doesn't have to be everything. If people just relaxed a little and enjoyed the content instead of rushing it. Everything is manageable even without tank/healer dps.

But, this is a game, and people have done the same thing over and over and over. So it's only natural that people want to rush through it so they don't have to spend more time doing it.
It's hard to keep everything new and fresh. That's why alot of people take a break so they don't tire themselves out with the same content over and over.

That is their enjoyment. I, for instance, enjoy jumping into new content and figuring out where I can improve; what tweaks I can make to my rotation. And while healer DPS isn't a necessity, tank DPS is. That is partly how they maintain aggro.

[Evergrey]

That is their enjoyment. I, for instance, enjoy jumping into new content and figuring out where I can improve; what tweaks I can make to my rotation. And while healer DPS isn't a necessity, tank DPS is. That is partly how they maintain aggro.

Yes, some people enjoy it, but it's not necessary to complete content. So in that way "DMG is not everything".
I just like being picky with words and point it out. =P

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Yes, some people enjoy it, but it's not necessary to complete content. So in that way "DMG is not everything".
I just like being picky with words and point it out. =P

It's a catch all reference because no matter how you play, the only important aspect of this game is how much damage you do. Tanks and healers aren't brought for just their dedicated roles but how efficient they deal damage. A tank who refuses to drop their tank stance or a healer who won't DPS will both struggle to find raid groups willing to take them because XIV simply doesn't demand enough from neither role. It's all about damage.

[Naunet]

It's all about damage.

I think we all know that. The big question is why. There's nothing special about FFXIV's raiding scene. It's got the same overall goal as any other MMO. With healers you can make the argument that SE is designing encounters that don't require very much active healing, so otherwise healers would end up just standing around. But how does one explain the dps requirements the community puts on tanks?

It's silly and horrendously limiting.

[Zojha]

But how does one explain the dps requirements the community puts on tanks?

In the exact same way: You do not need to actively mitigate. In fact, we do not even HAVE much in the way of active mitigation. Tank stance is passive and most of your other mitigation tools are on CDs of 1,5 minutes and up, all of which are fire and forget buttons. Likewise, aggro is trivial to gain and hold to the point that it's near impossible to lose if you aren't focusing on DPS for extended periods of time.

The already mentioned healer power also plays a role: In part, you do not need that tank stance or mitigation because healers can heal you just fine without as long as you use your cooldowns when the tank buster hits. And STILL have downtime and mana to spare despite that.

And it comes with another critical issue: Hard enrages. When healers are weak, you do not need enrages, because every fight has the natural enrage of your healers going OOM. This in turn allows for a synergistic play between all roles: Better DPS will shorten the fight and thus allow healers and tanks more margin of error, as they don't need to endure as long with their given resources, while better tanks/healers allow the DPS more margin of error by prolonging the fight. With hard enrages however, the time tanks and healers can give the DPS has a hard limit. Their DPS however makes it easier to beat the enrage. Result? Healers and Tanks dealing damage is emphasized even further.
So why not just remove hard enrages? Because then tanks and healers could drag the fight on forever and cheese it. They have the power. Worse, damage dealers would no longer be needed, as tanks and healers are still "able" to do the damage themselves.

They simply made tanking and healing too simple and tanks and healers too powerful. That is why the issue is so very pronounced in this game. And it can be fixed, too. It requires some hefty reworks, but it can be fixed. But not by asking people on the forums, that'll have to go over game design.

[Ultimatecalibur]

But how does one explain the dps requirements the community puts on tanks?

The dps focus was caused by the 2.X to 3.1 Str tank meta which boosted base tank damage by ~35% with dps stance tanking adding another +30% for a total of 175% intended main tank damage output. The 3.2 Str/Vit changes still leave tank damage ~18% higher than originally intended and dps tanking is well entrenched meaning 150% intended main tank performance.

Gordias Savage's overly tight dps checks and HW's complicated and punishing dps rotations at release lead many groups to look for easy ways to compensate for the missing dps amounts. Strength and Penta-melded accessories along with dps stance tanking made possible by Ninja's Shadewalker was one of the easiest solutions to cover the missing numbers.

When tanks are intended to output 2/3rds of what a dps can output but can output 90%+ of what a dps can output, expectations rise to that bar and anyone not doing so will be under-performing.

[Evergrey]

It's a catch all reference because no matter how you play, the only important aspect of this game is how much damage you do. Tanks and healers aren't brought for just their dedicated roles but how efficient they deal damage. A tank who refuses to drop their tank stance or a healer who won't DPS will both struggle to find raid groups willing to take them because XIV simply doesn't demand enough from neither role. It's all about damage.

I don't think you understood what I meant.
When someone say that "something" is "everything" but it turns out that it isn't "everything" I like to try and humor with it.

Such as "Do crafting need DPS? No? Then DPS isn't everything".
That was a drastic example, but I hope you get it a little better now.

[Knahli]

Talking about =/= showing footage

Why doesn't Ala Mhigo have its own housing plots?

Uh... well, to be fair, it's not like we're rolling in housing patches. Ishgard doesn't even have one and Shirogane makes the most sense out of the two areas to actually land the new zone.


As for Tanking, what about making the stun potency of Tanks rise above that of your standard DPS? Aside from how obnoxious it is to meet with a stun resistance of an AoE you actually wanted to avoid because the DPS were weaving their own stuns into their damage rotations, I think it wouldn't do any harm to assure Tanks that they can output their stuns without having to worry about other party members.... and then build on that.

For instance, Paladins could perhaps have the ability to use a conal/AoE stun under certain circumstances - perhaps involving Shield Swipe as part of a combo. This in turn could be used to cancel the casts of a number of trash you are dealing with in certain raids and could even go as far giving you a non-cleansable damage and enmity debuff in exchange, something that takes the focus away from DPS and back toward utility while deterring people from using it when it's not necessary. Naturally, some homogenization is likely needed so no job is left out but perhaps having varying effects would at least help. Dark Knight, for instance, could have high potency, AoE slow mixed in with a combo involving their Abyssal Drain. The enemy's cast won't be cancelled so it remains a threat, but it awards time for DPS to be focused and achieve the same end.

In addition, mechanics could be weaved more in line with the skills available to tanks as opposed to simply interacting with things or standing on X. Imagine being able to throw trash from the arena to their deaths or into certain AoEs like the Titan landslide as opposed to outright killing them, but arranging the fight in such a way that you can't simply turn that into an 'always' mechanic, but something you can quickly react to if and when the situation happens to present itself. How about Warrior being able to bleed their own HP in exchange for regenerating party members who are dangerously close to death? Or Dark Knights being able trade places with someone who just died in an attempt to rescue a worrying situation, trading off for a permanent damage and/or HP reduction if they themselves are revived by a healer.

I'm not really good with this sort of thing but these were the random ideas that popped into my head.