Dps As Healer

[loreleidiangelo]

I had data at the time. I did tests with WHM (which was my main before HW) and AST (which was going to be my new main). The healing output was enough lower than WHM that the increased risk and difficulty of healing as an AST in a progression raid environment wasn't feasible for most players.

The tests I did backed up this reasoning. So I switched to WHM and I'll just say the difference in efficiency was quite noticeable. Most groups would not accept ASTs in their raid groups or in PF they would lock the slot to WHM and SCH also.

Do you have links to the tests you did? I'd be curious to see numerical results, which were sadly lacking on Google search.

[Miste]

Do you have links to the tests you did? I'd be curious to see numerical results, which were sadly lacking on Google search.

I don't have it anymore hence the past tense "had data" or yes I would have gladly shared it with you. Lost the hard drive it was saved on due to it deciding not to live anymore and since I am lame I didn't have a backup.

I was around at launch and leveled both AST and WHM to 60 before they unlocked Gordias Savage and while AST was still viable it was way more difficult to heal on and the SCH + AST combo my boyfriend and I were trying to manage at he time while progressing Gordias Savage was just frustratingly worse than WHM and SCH even though AST was supposed to be able to pair with either healer.

I attribute it to the fact that AST and SCH gets no party MND buff and it lowers both healers heals even more and lowers DPS.

ASTs regens were also lower (Aspected Benefic Regen was only 100 potency at launch. Later on they changed it to 140) and the fact that Collective Unconscious regen only worked if you channeled the bubble (and couldnt cast anything else) made it mostly useless for most things while WHM had Asylum that you could from a distance safely cast over the tanks whenever it was up.

Synastry had no healing potency buff on it so AST essentially had no Divine Seal all while having worse base healing potency than WHM already.

Lightspeed still made you instant cast but it cut all damage and healing output by 25% while in effect and did not reduce MP cost (they added that later and changed it so only damage is reduced).

The numbers didn't lie :x AST was extremely lacking in healing to the point where I was solo healing A1S Faust from 100% to 50% while my boyfriend on SCH only DPS'd then started healing at 50%. At the end of the fight he on SCH did double my healing even though he only healed for half the fight and I healed for pretty much all of it minus a bit of opener DPS.

I am not like super awesome best player or anything, but I don't suck really bad and I've been competent enough to clear almost all raids so far even if not close to world first etc.so skill is some of the factor since I am not a top tier world first player, but even with the skill I do have it was overly frustrating and stressful trying to heal with such low output compared to WHM and SCH.

Here is a link to some of the AST changes in the patch notes: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...7aff5b99d9fb32

[loreleidiangelo]

I don't have it anymore hence the past tense "had data" or yes I would have gladly shared it with you. Lost the hard drive it was saved on due to it deciding not to live anymore and since I am lame I didn't have a backup.

I was around at launch and leveled both AST and WHM to 60 before they unlocked Gordias Savage and while AST was still viable it was way more difficult to heal on and the SCH + AST combo my boyfriend and I were trying to manage at he time while progressing Gordias Savage was just frustratingly worse than WHM and SCH even though AST was supposed to be able to pair with either healer.

I attribute it to the fact that AST and SCH gets no party MND buff and it lowers both healers heals even more and lowers DPS.

ASTs regens were also lower (Aspected Benefic Regen was only 100 potency at launch. Later on they changed it to 140) and the fact that Collective Unconscious regen only worked if you channeled the bubble (and couldnt cast anything else) made it mostly useless for most things while WHM had Asylum that you could from a distance safely cast over the tanks whenever it was up.

Synastry had no healing potency buff on it so AST essentially had no Divine Seal all while having worse base healing potency than WHM already.

Lightspeed still made you instant cast but it cut all damage and healing output by 25% while in effect and did not reduce MP cost (they added that later and changed it so only damage is reduced).

The numbers didn't lie :x AST was extremely lacking in healing to the point where I was solo healing A1S Faust from 100% to 50% while my boyfriend on SCH only DPS'd then started healing at 50%. At the end of the fight he on SCH did double my healing even though he only healed for half the fight and I healed for pretty much all of it minus a bit of opener DPS.

I am not like super awesome best player or anything, but I don't suck really bad and I've been competent enough to clear almost all raids so far even if not close to world first etc.so skill is some of the factor since I am not a top tier world first player, but even with the skill I do have it was overly frustrating and stressful trying to heal with such low output compared to WHM and SCH.

Here is a link to some of the AST changes in the patch notes: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...7aff5b99d9fb32

I'm trying to think of a way to put together my thoughts right... Basically, ASTs were clearing content, it was just making SCHs heal more and DPS less. If Balance actually boosted group DPS like it does now where it would probably make up in the DPS loss from a SCH swapping out of Cleric's, it probably would be seen as a fair trade-off, but it didn't back then because it was less flat %, had a shorter duration, and Spread was like a 2-minute CD and Shuffle was 60 seconds and also let you draw the same crappy Spear cards over and over again, making setting up AOE Balance a lot harder than it is now. But now ASTs are healing as well as WHMs AND contributing something like 800 group DPS from just card buffs alone. I think there are two solutions to the problem, just one is higher risk for higher reward and the other is a safer homogenization route.

I think the game could use a lot more risk in the healing department, so I prefer route A, but that doesn't make route B any less valid. If that makes sense.

(I don't recall struggling that much in content, but that might be because my BF - our raid SCH at the time - always helped out with healing a lot more than other SCHs did at the time. I'm happy to see the whole "off healer" idea start to lose traction, as it's awfully inefficient and places undue stress on one healer while letting the "DPSing" healer focus a lot less on fight mechanics as a whole. Either way, even pushing DPS checks in Gordias he still pulled a lot higher healing numbers than other SCHs, so maybe I never felt the AST crunch as acutely as some other people. I still think that only one aspect of AST needed to be changed - either card QoL or healing effects - but both is just way too much IMO.)

[Miste]

so maybe I never felt the AST crunch as acutely as some other people.

Well it also depends on when you started attempting Gordias. My group was aiming for semi-hardcore and was attempting week one of release with minimum entry gear and we also had tanks using slaying accessories (cause back then it was the raid meta before they fixed VIT) and also tanks tanking in DPS stance for parts of the fight. If gear wasn't a factor at all and everyone had max item level gear at release then AST healing for less might not be as big of a deal, but for groups starting out when the raid tiers first release being minimum item level compounds upon a healer with weaker heals...and like the last post I showed all the abilities that we had back then also attributing to our weaker heals.

In the end all groups outside of the top tier groups will go for the more reliable heals. Buffs don't matter if you can't survive.

It puts both healers on equal footing

No it doesn't, because healing is their primary function. If one of them is weaker at their primary function then it will cause lesser skilled players to be unable to heal on it properly and SE would have to design fights around AST's lower healing potency so most fights will be way easier to heal on WHM and SCH because of that.

If the fights are way easier to heal on WHM and SCH then people will stop playing AST (including me; I'd just go to back to WHM because it's not worth it to go back to how it was in 3.0 where I would ask groups and no one would take me because I was an AST and they would say "we tried taking ASTs but we find they cannot keep up with the healing/sorry but ASTs healing numbers are too low") and even the ones who continue to try to play it will notice groups locking the healing spots to WHM/SCH only like back at 3.0 launch. You think that is equal footing? It's not.

You keep thinking the reasons AST were locked out at 3.0 launch was due to their healing AND buffs, but it wasn't. The only issue I saw myself was their healing and the only issue I saw others have with AST was their healing; and this is because...HEALing is the most important part of a HEALer which you just don't seem to understand.

You seem to crusade for WHM equality but honestly they don't have it that bad. (In my experience) They've never been locked out of groups (like AST was in the past) except for the top tier speedrun groups which is only <1% of the player base (and even if you lower ASTs healing they are skilled enough to keep using ASTs anyway) or if the party had WHM already since stacking same jobs is bad (but that is true for any healer type).

You can dream about them nerfing AST healing potency back down to original, but highly likely it isn't going to happen. They don't want to bring the situation back like in 3.0 launch where one healer role was often ostracized out of groups. They want the community to take any of the 3 healers and right now, even though AST cards could be considered too powerful, all healers are accepted into 99% of groups. I see WHMs all the time in savage content. I play WHM in savage content too because I enjoy WHM and AST so I interchange them. I've joined savage pugs on WHM no issues, never been locked out of the spot unless the group already had a WHM.

For raiding most group compositions are SCH + AST or SCH + WHM. Do you notice which healer seems to more often have a spot? SCH. So legit question but why do you only think AST needs to be nerfed? You do savage raids right? So you should know what the usual group compositions are like; so I am confused why you think only AST needs nerfing.

That's what I feel SE was originally aiming for. WHM to be a safer and easier healer but offering no dmg bonus or utility while AST, still capable of healing content, would have a much harder time

You'd be wrong about that because SE made a statement about AST later on when they started buffing it. They said they ended up making it too weak because they were being "too careful" while trying to balance it and so AST ended up too weak compared to WHM and SCH.

WHM is easier to heal on since they don't have oGCD cards to weave, but they were never supposed to be the safer choice. That's why the community didn't take ASTs; the safer route is what 95% of the player base prefers. You can easily see that with the Zurvan EX skip soar and LB second soar meta. It is the safer/easier path to a clear and it will always be taken by most players. Only the top tier speed run/world first groups take the riskier path because they are skilled enough to climb the steeper path to a clear.

I hope I got my point across, I want true Balance

Your idea isn't true balance and you won't ever change my mind.

Also just because all healers have around the same healing potential does not mean they are or have to be homogenized.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You seem to crusade for WHM equality but honestly they don't have it that bad. They've never been locked out of groups (like AST was in the past) except for the top tier speedrun groups which is only <1% of the player base (and even if you lower ASTs healing they are skilled enough to keep using ASTs anyway) or if the party had WHM already since stacking same jobs is bad (but that is true for any healer type).

This is not entirely true. Based on parses uploaded, both Scholar and Astro are taken nearly 50% more frequently compared to White Mage. That means it isn't just speed runners, but a larger portion of the raid community as a whole. It largely stems from the fact White Mage is, currently, a weaker version of Astro. Whether they ultimately weaken Astro's healing or not, it needs some form of drawback. At the moment, there is simply no weakness to Astro and it's ridiculous utility.

[Miste]

This is not entirely true. Based on parses uploaded, both Scholar and Astro are taken nearly 50% more frequently compared to White Mage. That means it isn't just speed runners, but a larger portion of the raid community as a whole. It largely stems from the fact White Mage is, currently, a weaker version of Astro. Whether they ultimately weaken Astro's healing or not, it needs some form of drawback. At the moment, there is simply no weakness to Astro and it's ridiculous utility.

FFlogs? You can't use that as a tool to judge frequency because not everyone uses it. More hardcore/competitive speed runs groups upload than normal groups or pug groups. So it would automatically be skewed.

It would be the same as judging the forums as a good indicator of the whole community even when a lot don't even come here or post here.

I've been part of the raid community since launch and I've never seen WHM's have any issues joining groups. I also raid on it from 2.0 to 3.0 and in 3.0 too so I have experience being one. If it was such large part of the community refusing 100% to take WHMs I would have seen some of it by now.

Also I never said AST doesn't need a drawback I said before they can nerf the cards or buff WHM utility np. Nerfing their healing potency to be weaker than WHM and SCH is a bad idea though. None of the healers should be weaker than the others at their primary function.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

FFlogs? You can't use that as a tool to judge frequency because not everyone uses it. More hardcore/competitive speed runs groups upload than normal groups or pug groups. So it would automatically be skewed.

It would be the same as judging the forums as a good indicator of the whole community even when a lot don't even come here or post here.

I've been part of the raid community since launch and I've never seen WHM's have any issues joining groups. I also raid on it from 2.0 to 3.0 and in 3.0 too so I have experience being one. If it was such large part of the community refusing 100% to take WHMs I would have seen some of it by now.

Also I never said AST doesn't need a drawback I said before they can nerf the cards or buff WHM utility np. Nerfing their healing potency to be weaker than WHM and SCH is a bad idea though. None of the healers should be weaker than the others at their primary function.

Likewise, we cannot use your claim of constantly seeing White Mages in Savage pugs because it's entirely anecdotal. I, for instance, see more and more parties outright mandating an Astro even over Scholar. FFlogs may not be a perfect representation, but it's the only numerical source we have. Keep in mind, your numbers are uploaded regardless if you even have a parse installed. If someone in your party does, you'll be on FFlogs should they choose to upload. And you might be amazed at how many pugs have a parse nowadays.

Because White Mage has always remained a stable in the raid tier. Only Creator has seen their sharp decline due to Astro's vastly superior utility. Using the same FFlog metric, it supports the notion Astro was sorely ignored throughout Gordias and Midas. The only outliner is Creator.

Doing so only homogenizes all three healers and robs their uniqueness. The only way White Mage can compete with Astro currently is to receive an equivalent to Balance. Otherwise, it will be increasingly ignored in favour of the other two healers. For comparison sake, the DPS roles are not made equal nor are tanks. Monks pull higher personal DPS over their melee counterparts and Warrior vastly outperforms Paladin or Dark Knight in raw DPS. Why couldn't this apply to healers?

[Ghishlain]

None of the healers should be weaker than the others at their primary function.

Random question since I've been seeing this go back and forth a bit between yourself and your opposition:

These are just arbitrary numbers, but if AST and SCH's were able to do approximately 500 HPS and WHM was able to do 700 HPS and the content only required 450 HPS, would you still be opposed to a lower healer potency for higher utility despite still being able to handle the HPS requirements just fine?

While I do believe all content should be able to be handled by all healer types, weaker potency doesn't' necessarily mean a job is incapable of handling it.