Dps As Healer

[Miste]

it's that they can heal all the raids in the game with the same ease as a WHM but with vastly better utility.

Yes, to which I already told the person I was replying to that they could buff WHM's utility instead of weakening AST's primary function: Healing (you know, since they are a healer role like the other two)

But said person claims they want healers to be "balanced" yet suggests to weaken AST's healing potency which would make it not balanced with the other two healers when it comes to healing power.

There is a reason SE changed AST's healing potency to what it is now. I mean if you were correct and "a lot of fuss was made over their heal potencies for no reason" then why did SE change it? The community has fussed about random things off and on and SE doesn't always listen. So it's not like its a given just because people fussed. They must have seen some good reasons to do it.

Lower MP cost back then didn't really change anything because you have to cast an extra spell to be on even footing with WHM or even SCH who micromanages their fairy. So you didn't actually save any MP. The bit faster spell casting didn't make up for the lower potency either.

I still wish I had some hard data, though. People threw potencies around but no one seems to have run any numerical tests to see how exactly the actual values stacked against one another.

I had data at the time. I did tests with WHM (which was my main before HW) and AST (which was going to be my new main). The healing output was enough lower than WHM that the increased risk and difficulty of healing as an AST in a progression raid environment wasn't feasible for most players

The tests I did backed up this reasoning. So I switched to WHM and I'll just say the difference in efficiency was quite noticeable. Most groups would not accept ASTs in their raid groups or in PF they would lock the slot to WHM and SCH also.

I've never seen WHM locked out of any current content, like AST was at release, even after AST was buffed. The only groups who won't take a WHM likely is a speed run group which only 1% of the top tier player base actually participates in.

If every player was extremely skilled at the game then AST being weaker with heals would have been fine, but seeing as player's skill levels vary that just isn't the case so no healer should ever be naturally weaker at their primary function which is healing the party.

So if they wanna nerf AST cards because they overstepped how strong they should be? That's fine, I wouldn't have issue with it, but you can't make a healer weaker at healing than the other two healers. Not only is it unfair, but it is detrimental for less skilled players who want to play the job because they enjoy it. Or if they wanna buff WHM utility cool, np, do it, but every healer should be on quite close footing with healing power so that a wide variety of players can play the job's primary healing role decently enough even with less skill.

We already have individual player skill and gear which can make fights harder or easier depending on the player and content, we don't need a third variable where one of the healers is also naturally weaker compounded on not every player being super skilled and considering raid content is quite hard to heal for most players when it first gets released due to lack of gear.

if AST healing potency is nerfed back to 3.0 values, even though it's harder, it's still possible.

Are you sure? This is sort of pointless to say since there is no way to prove that an AST with 3.0 values could successfully contribute properly and clear A11S and A12S for example; since 3.0 values on AST don't exist anymore to try it. Not saying its not possible, just saying we have no way to prove it either way.

This would solve at least some of the balance issues going on right now. People would need to decide if they want stronger healing or strong buffs.

I already said they could buff WHMs utility but if this whole vendetta to nerf AST healing potency is all centered around the cards then like I said above idc if they nerf those. It makes logical sense. Unlike the illogical idea of lowering a healer's healing power below the other two healer jobs when they are actually currently balanced...therefore making them unbalanced which is against what you claim you want.

Please don't twist my words like that. I am in no way fine with the current healer balance.

You want to make healers balanced, yet you want to nerf AST's primary function. That's not balanced. That imbalances the healing power between the three healers. AST will be lower and WHM and SCH will be higher. So again that isn't balanced.

The utility atm isn't balanced so they need to fix that. Healing potency is fine since its balanced; no changes needed.

I didn't really twist your words.

You said "All healers don't need to be equal", but you want all healer utility to be equal, yet you don't want healing potency to be equal...healing is part of healers though.

Personally I don't believe you can piece meal healers into segments where one part of them should be balanced but the other part isn't or doesn't have to be. Either healers are balanced or they're not.

Right now healer potency is balanced but healer utility isn't so overall the healers aren't balanced right now, but balancing the utility then unbalancing the healing potency just swaps the imbalances around and no progress was made at all since they are still overall imbalanced again.

So again all they need to do is fix the utility by either buffing WHM utility or nerfing some of AST utility. Healing potencies are balanced atm.

[loreleidiangelo]

I had data at the time. I did tests with WHM (which was my main before HW) and AST (which was going to be my new main). The healing output was enough lower than WHM that the increased risk and difficulty of healing as an AST in a progression raid environment wasn't feasible for most players.

The tests I did backed up this reasoning. So I switched to WHM and I'll just say the difference in efficiency was quite noticeable. Most groups would not accept ASTs in their raid groups or in PF they would lock the slot to WHM and SCH also.

Do you have links to the tests you did? I'd be curious to see numerical results, which were sadly lacking on Google search.

[Miste]

Do you have links to the tests you did? I'd be curious to see numerical results, which were sadly lacking on Google search.

I don't have it anymore hence the past tense "had data" or yes I would have gladly shared it with you. Lost the hard drive it was saved on due to it deciding not to live anymore and since I am lame I didn't have a backup.

I was around at launch and leveled both AST and WHM to 60 before they unlocked Gordias Savage and while AST was still viable it was way more difficult to heal on and the SCH + AST combo my boyfriend and I were trying to manage at he time while progressing Gordias Savage was just frustratingly worse than WHM and SCH even though AST was supposed to be able to pair with either healer.

I attribute it to the fact that AST and SCH gets no party MND buff and it lowers both healers heals even more and lowers DPS.

ASTs regens were also lower (Aspected Benefic Regen was only 100 potency at launch. Later on they changed it to 140) and the fact that Collective Unconscious regen only worked if you channeled the bubble (and couldnt cast anything else) made it mostly useless for most things while WHM had Asylum that you could from a distance safely cast over the tanks whenever it was up.

Synastry had no healing potency buff on it so AST essentially had no Divine Seal all while having worse base healing potency than WHM already.

Lightspeed still made you instant cast but it cut all damage and healing output by 25% while in effect and did not reduce MP cost (they added that later and changed it so only damage is reduced).

The numbers didn't lie :x AST was extremely lacking in healing to the point where I was solo healing A1S Faust from 100% to 50% while my boyfriend on SCH only DPS'd then started healing at 50%. At the end of the fight he on SCH did double my healing even though he only healed for half the fight and I healed for pretty much all of it minus a bit of opener DPS.

I am not like super awesome best player or anything, but I don't suck really bad and I've been competent enough to clear almost all raids so far even if not close to world first etc.so skill is some of the factor since I am not a top tier world first player, but even with the skill I do have it was overly frustrating and stressful trying to heal with such low output compared to WHM and SCH.

Here is a link to some of the AST changes in the patch notes: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...7aff5b99d9fb32

[loreleidiangelo]

I don't have it anymore hence the past tense "had data" or yes I would have gladly shared it with you. Lost the hard drive it was saved on due to it deciding not to live anymore and since I am lame I didn't have a backup.

I was around at launch and leveled both AST and WHM to 60 before they unlocked Gordias Savage and while AST was still viable it was way more difficult to heal on and the SCH + AST combo my boyfriend and I were trying to manage at he time while progressing Gordias Savage was just frustratingly worse than WHM and SCH even though AST was supposed to be able to pair with either healer.

I attribute it to the fact that AST and SCH gets no party MND buff and it lowers both healers heals even more and lowers DPS.

ASTs regens were also lower (Aspected Benefic Regen was only 100 potency at launch. Later on they changed it to 140) and the fact that Collective Unconscious regen only worked if you channeled the bubble (and couldnt cast anything else) made it mostly useless for most things while WHM had Asylum that you could from a distance safely cast over the tanks whenever it was up.

Synastry had no healing potency buff on it so AST essentially had no Divine Seal all while having worse base healing potency than WHM already.

Lightspeed still made you instant cast but it cut all damage and healing output by 25% while in effect and did not reduce MP cost (they added that later and changed it so only damage is reduced).

The numbers didn't lie :x AST was extremely lacking in healing to the point where I was solo healing A1S Faust from 100% to 50% while my boyfriend on SCH only DPS'd then started healing at 50%. At the end of the fight he on SCH did double my healing even though he only healed for half the fight and I healed for pretty much all of it minus a bit of opener DPS.

I am not like super awesome best player or anything, but I don't suck really bad and I've been competent enough to clear almost all raids so far even if not close to world first etc.so skill is some of the factor since I am not a top tier world first player, but even with the skill I do have it was overly frustrating and stressful trying to heal with such low output compared to WHM and SCH.

Here is a link to some of the AST changes in the patch notes: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...7aff5b99d9fb32

I'm trying to think of a way to put together my thoughts right... Basically, ASTs were clearing content, it was just making SCHs heal more and DPS less. If Balance actually boosted group DPS like it does now where it would probably make up in the DPS loss from a SCH swapping out of Cleric's, it probably would be seen as a fair trade-off, but it didn't back then because it was less flat %, had a shorter duration, and Spread was like a 2-minute CD and Shuffle was 60 seconds and also let you draw the same crappy Spear cards over and over again, making setting up AOE Balance a lot harder than it is now. But now ASTs are healing as well as WHMs AND contributing something like 800 group DPS from just card buffs alone. I think there are two solutions to the problem, just one is higher risk for higher reward and the other is a safer homogenization route.

I think the game could use a lot more risk in the healing department, so I prefer route A, but that doesn't make route B any less valid. If that makes sense.

(I don't recall struggling that much in content, but that might be because my BF - our raid SCH at the time - always helped out with healing a lot more than other SCHs did at the time. I'm happy to see the whole "off healer" idea start to lose traction, as it's awfully inefficient and places undue stress on one healer while letting the "DPSing" healer focus a lot less on fight mechanics as a whole. Either way, even pushing DPS checks in Gordias he still pulled a lot higher healing numbers than other SCHs, so maybe I never felt the AST crunch as acutely as some other people. I still think that only one aspect of AST needed to be changed - either card QoL or healing effects - but both is just way too much IMO.)

[Miste]

so maybe I never felt the AST crunch as acutely as some other people.

Well it also depends on when you started attempting Gordias. My group was aiming for semi-hardcore and was attempting week one of release with minimum entry gear and we also had tanks using slaying accessories (cause back then it was the raid meta before they fixed VIT) and also tanks tanking in DPS stance for parts of the fight. If gear wasn't a factor at all and everyone had max item level gear at release then AST healing for less might not be as big of a deal, but for groups starting out when the raid tiers first release being minimum item level compounds upon a healer with weaker heals...and like the last post I showed all the abilities that we had back then also attributing to our weaker heals.

In the end all groups outside of the top tier groups will go for the more reliable heals. Buffs don't matter if you can't survive.

It puts both healers on equal footing

No it doesn't, because healing is their primary function. If one of them is weaker at their primary function then it will cause lesser skilled players to be unable to heal on it properly and SE would have to design fights around AST's lower healing potency so most fights will be way easier to heal on WHM and SCH because of that.

If the fights are way easier to heal on WHM and SCH then people will stop playing AST (including me; I'd just go to back to WHM because it's not worth it to go back to how it was in 3.0 where I would ask groups and no one would take me because I was an AST and they would say "we tried taking ASTs but we find they cannot keep up with the healing/sorry but ASTs healing numbers are too low") and even the ones who continue to try to play it will notice groups locking the healing spots to WHM/SCH only like back at 3.0 launch. You think that is equal footing? It's not.

You keep thinking the reasons AST were locked out at 3.0 launch was due to their healing AND buffs, but it wasn't. The only issue I saw myself was their healing and the only issue I saw others have with AST was their healing; and this is because...HEALing is the most important part of a HEALer which you just don't seem to understand.

You seem to crusade for WHM equality but honestly they don't have it that bad. (In my experience) They've never been locked out of groups (like AST was in the past) except for the top tier speedrun groups which is only <1% of the player base (and even if you lower ASTs healing they are skilled enough to keep using ASTs anyway) or if the party had WHM already since stacking same jobs is bad (but that is true for any healer type).

You can dream about them nerfing AST healing potency back down to original, but highly likely it isn't going to happen. They don't want to bring the situation back like in 3.0 launch where one healer role was often ostracized out of groups. They want the community to take any of the 3 healers and right now, even though AST cards could be considered too powerful, all healers are accepted into 99% of groups. I see WHMs all the time in savage content. I play WHM in savage content too because I enjoy WHM and AST so I interchange them. I've joined savage pugs on WHM no issues, never been locked out of the spot unless the group already had a WHM.

For raiding most group compositions are SCH + AST or SCH + WHM. Do you notice which healer seems to more often have a spot? SCH. So legit question but why do you only think AST needs to be nerfed? You do savage raids right? So you should know what the usual group compositions are like; so I am confused why you think only AST needs nerfing.

That's what I feel SE was originally aiming for. WHM to be a safer and easier healer but offering no dmg bonus or utility while AST, still capable of healing content, would have a much harder time

You'd be wrong about that because SE made a statement about AST later on when they started buffing it. They said they ended up making it too weak because they were being "too careful" while trying to balance it and so AST ended up too weak compared to WHM and SCH.

WHM is easier to heal on since they don't have oGCD cards to weave, but they were never supposed to be the safer choice. That's why the community didn't take ASTs; the safer route is what 95% of the player base prefers. You can easily see that with the Zurvan EX skip soar and LB second soar meta. It is the safer/easier path to a clear and it will always be taken by most players. Only the top tier speed run/world first groups take the riskier path because they are skilled enough to climb the steeper path to a clear.

I hope I got my point across, I want true Balance

Your idea isn't true balance and you won't ever change my mind.

Also just because all healers have around the same healing potential does not mean they are or have to be homogenized.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You seem to crusade for WHM equality but honestly they don't have it that bad. They've never been locked out of groups (like AST was in the past) except for the top tier speedrun groups which is only <1% of the player base (and even if you lower ASTs healing they are skilled enough to keep using ASTs anyway) or if the party had WHM already since stacking same jobs is bad (but that is true for any healer type).

This is not entirely true. Based on parses uploaded, both Scholar and Astro are taken nearly 50% more frequently compared to White Mage. That means it isn't just speed runners, but a larger portion of the raid community as a whole. It largely stems from the fact White Mage is, currently, a weaker version of Astro. Whether they ultimately weaken Astro's healing or not, it needs some form of drawback. At the moment, there is simply no weakness to Astro and it's ridiculous utility.

[Miste]

This is not entirely true. Based on parses uploaded, both Scholar and Astro are taken nearly 50% more frequently compared to White Mage. That means it isn't just speed runners, but a larger portion of the raid community as a whole. It largely stems from the fact White Mage is, currently, a weaker version of Astro. Whether they ultimately weaken Astro's healing or not, it needs some form of drawback. At the moment, there is simply no weakness to Astro and it's ridiculous utility.

FFlogs? You can't use that as a tool to judge frequency because not everyone uses it. More hardcore/competitive speed runs groups upload than normal groups or pug groups. So it would automatically be skewed.

It would be the same as judging the forums as a good indicator of the whole community even when a lot don't even come here or post here.

I've been part of the raid community since launch and I've never seen WHM's have any issues joining groups. I also raid on it from 2.0 to 3.0 and in 3.0 too so I have experience being one. If it was such large part of the community refusing 100% to take WHMs I would have seen some of it by now.

Also I never said AST doesn't need a drawback I said before they can nerf the cards or buff WHM utility np. Nerfing their healing potency to be weaker than WHM and SCH is a bad idea though. None of the healers should be weaker than the others at their primary function.