Dps As Healer

[Juicinators]

These threads make me laugh. Everyone has there opinions and no one will ever win this argument. Just play the game and have fun. At the end of the day you pay for your own sub, do whatever makes you happy.

[Vexander]

[Nixxe]

We need fewer healers and more tanks and DPS. My healer queues are not instant, forcing me to tank. Nobody can understand my struggle as I wait two, maybe even three, minutes to get into extreme roulette if I stubbornly stay a healer.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Um....do you realize what you just said?

If they simply need to be able to heal all the content in the game then all healers right now are 100% fine.

WHM, AST, and SCH can all heal and complete A12S which is the hardest piece of content atm. So you just invalidated any argument you had about nerfing AST or buffing WHM.

Well I guess that settles that.

I meant that in the context of you saying all healers need to be on equal footing with healing power.
They don't need to all be equal in healing power, they just need enough healing to get through content. Which means if AST healing potency is nerfed back to 3.0 values, even though it's harder, it's still possible. This would solve at least some of the balance issues going on right now. People would need to decide if they want stronger healing or strong buffs.

Please don't twist my words like that. I am in no way fine with the current healer balance.

[loreleidiangelo]

Um....do you realize what you just said?

If they simply need to be able to heal all the content in the game then all healers right now are 100% fine.

WHM, AST, and SCH can all heal and complete A12S which is the hardest piece of content atm. So you just invalidated any argument you had about nerfing AST or buffing WHM.

Well I guess that settles that.

I think you're taking a bit too simplistic of an approach, tbh. The point isn't that AST can heal all the raids in the game while having better utility, it's that they can heal all the raids in the game with the same ease as a WHM but with vastly better utility. It basically boils down to two approaches - homogenize the healers further so that one isn't really bringing anything different from the other, or acknowledge that skill gaps are a thing and make the healers with higher payoffs require better players to play them.

For what it's worth, I tried Googling my question I asked you earlier, and while I couldn't find any numerical data, it was interesting to see that the general thought on Reddit shortly after AST was released was that while Noct Sect didn't do as well at "off healing" as SCH that Di Sect was fine and nobody actually missed the 5% less healing potencies all that much. Even a criticism on this forum from one of the first ASTs to clear AS3 was more about the cards being too random and moves like Lightspeed/Disable having stupid criterion that limited their use, not about 5% less healing potency.

Searching further, the decision to boost AST healing potencies and re-tool a lot of their unique moves to more WHM/SCH-esque clones rather than adjusting card effects or card interactivity was also highly criticized both on Reddit and our very own healer subforum. I'd dare to posit that quite a few healers would be fine with AST being hit with a healing nerf bat to compensate for their various card QoL buffs received over the past year, rather than WHM getting their own version of a Balance card.

I still wish I had some hard data, though. People threw potencies around but no one seems to have run any numerical tests to see how exactly the actual values stacked against one another. Doing napkin math, at i261 it seems like my Benefic IIs would go from 8300 to about 7900, but that's a linear comparison and I know healing formulas aren't calculated bare-bones like that. Still, 400 HP is like 1.5% of a tank's HP bar, and AST has lower MP costs to boot. It just strikes me that a lot of fuss was made over their initial heal potencies for absolutely no reason.

[Rysir]

Honestly Healers in this game are somewhat similar as the Final fantasy tactics (first one) counterparts in that both have a down time and a means to deal damage (Tactics WM has sub skills, holy, staves that used magic power to determine physical damage)

I think its just this game is missing an element of "Oh damn" that tactics has in the chaotic nature of fights which can result in multiple people going from full health to near dead real quick thus if you chose to smack an enemy instead of readying a heal then someone is dying.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'm surprised, but also not so surprised that this subject made it here. Anywho, I believe that video was made to showcase how little healing is needed in that dungeon. I don't believe this person was doing it to deliberately be a jerk. But in either case, the point was established that there are instances where a healer literally has nothing to do but contribute to the damage pool. While that video proved a strong case of healer downtime, there is something else to take into consideration: The group still got the clear, and did so under 20 minutes.

Oh, no. I didn't intend to insinuate otherwise. Her jumping around was meant to showcase how little healing was required.

To counter, I posted a video of my own to show how unpredictable damage can be, and casting two holys instead of just one literally made the difference between a wipe and successful trash clear. Granted, the tank did not use any cooldowns, or anything really to save his own ass, but the point was we would not have wiped if I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. Everyone was doing the elementary basics of their role. The tank held agro, the DPS were pushing it, but the healer (me) was too focused on DPS and the result was a wipe.

Those pushing their arguments, no matter what side you're on, seem to see healing as a one-given scenario when it is nowhere near that black and white. There are situations where the tank is literally taking no damage, and the healer is left with nothing to do. There are situations where the tank is taking so much damage that not one gcd can be spared to contribute to DPS. There are also situations where incoming damage is so erratic and unpredictable that a GCD used towards damage is a risk.

In short, there are as many valid reasons for a healer to contribute to DPS as there are for them to stay out of Cleric. A truly good healer assesses the situation they are given and responds accordingly. And that is it. Sometimes you get good healers, and sometimes you don't. Same with tanks and DPS. We are actually fortunate that a healer can be subpar and still get clears. Would you or anyone else prefer the opposite?

Actually, I wished your video. The tank didn't rotate cooldowns and you didn't have Regen on them. That being said, mistakes happen and I would happily accept a wipe from a healing attempting to balance Cleric than one standing around. No one has suggested healing is a dichotomy. You will always have to adjust based on groups you're running with. The criticism derives from healers who won't DPS on principle. The "I'm a healer, not a DPS. You should just do more damage," nonsense. The idea is to always be casting. If the tank does happen to take higher damage wherein they need some babying, then by all means, focus on healing. I have those groups were I make a mental note I won't be doing much (or any) DPS this run. On the flipside, if they aren't, then you should be throwing out DoTs and spamming aoes.

Ultimately, we more or less agree.

[Miste]

it's that they can heal all the raids in the game with the same ease as a WHM but with vastly better utility.

Yes, to which I already told the person I was replying to that they could buff WHM's utility instead of weakening AST's primary function: Healing (you know, since they are a healer role like the other two)

But said person claims they want healers to be "balanced" yet suggests to weaken AST's healing potency which would make it not balanced with the other two healers when it comes to healing power.

There is a reason SE changed AST's healing potency to what it is now. I mean if you were correct and "a lot of fuss was made over their heal potencies for no reason" then why did SE change it? The community has fussed about random things off and on and SE doesn't always listen. So it's not like its a given just because people fussed. They must have seen some good reasons to do it.

Lower MP cost back then didn't really change anything because you have to cast an extra spell to be on even footing with WHM or even SCH who micromanages their fairy. So you didn't actually save any MP. The bit faster spell casting didn't make up for the lower potency either.

I still wish I had some hard data, though. People threw potencies around but no one seems to have run any numerical tests to see how exactly the actual values stacked against one another.

I had data at the time. I did tests with WHM (which was my main before HW) and AST (which was going to be my new main). The healing output was enough lower than WHM that the increased risk and difficulty of healing as an AST in a progression raid environment wasn't feasible for most players

The tests I did backed up this reasoning. So I switched to WHM and I'll just say the difference in efficiency was quite noticeable. Most groups would not accept ASTs in their raid groups or in PF they would lock the slot to WHM and SCH also.

I've never seen WHM locked out of any current content, like AST was at release, even after AST was buffed. The only groups who won't take a WHM likely is a speed run group which only 1% of the top tier player base actually participates in.

If every player was extremely skilled at the game then AST being weaker with heals would have been fine, but seeing as player's skill levels vary that just isn't the case so no healer should ever be naturally weaker at their primary function which is healing the party.

So if they wanna nerf AST cards because they overstepped how strong they should be? That's fine, I wouldn't have issue with it, but you can't make a healer weaker at healing than the other two healers. Not only is it unfair, but it is detrimental for less skilled players who want to play the job because they enjoy it. Or if they wanna buff WHM utility cool, np, do it, but every healer should be on quite close footing with healing power so that a wide variety of players can play the job's primary healing role decently enough even with less skill.

We already have individual player skill and gear which can make fights harder or easier depending on the player and content, we don't need a third variable where one of the healers is also naturally weaker compounded on not every player being super skilled and considering raid content is quite hard to heal for most players when it first gets released due to lack of gear.

if AST healing potency is nerfed back to 3.0 values, even though it's harder, it's still possible.

Are you sure? This is sort of pointless to say since there is no way to prove that an AST with 3.0 values could successfully contribute properly and clear A11S and A12S for example; since 3.0 values on AST don't exist anymore to try it. Not saying its not possible, just saying we have no way to prove it either way.

This would solve at least some of the balance issues going on right now. People would need to decide if they want stronger healing or strong buffs.

I already said they could buff WHMs utility but if this whole vendetta to nerf AST healing potency is all centered around the cards then like I said above idc if they nerf those. It makes logical sense. Unlike the illogical idea of lowering a healer's healing power below the other two healer jobs when they are actually currently balanced...therefore making them unbalanced which is against what you claim you want.

Please don't twist my words like that. I am in no way fine with the current healer balance.

You want to make healers balanced, yet you want to nerf AST's primary function. That's not balanced. That imbalances the healing power between the three healers. AST will be lower and WHM and SCH will be higher. So again that isn't balanced.

The utility atm isn't balanced so they need to fix that. Healing potency is fine since its balanced; no changes needed.

I didn't really twist your words.

You said "All healers don't need to be equal", but you want all healer utility to be equal, yet you don't want healing potency to be equal...healing is part of healers though.

Personally I don't believe you can piece meal healers into segments where one part of them should be balanced but the other part isn't or doesn't have to be. Either healers are balanced or they're not.

Right now healer potency is balanced but healer utility isn't so overall the healers aren't balanced right now, but balancing the utility then unbalancing the healing potency just swaps the imbalances around and no progress was made at all since they are still overall imbalanced again.

So again all they need to do is fix the utility by either buffing WHM utility or nerfing some of AST utility. Healing potencies are balanced atm.

[Sylve]

A design shift like that is certainly possible, yes, but it can't be done without seriously nerfing healer DPS and buffing their support options (undesirable for solo play), or raising healing requirements WHILE giving support options that make up the numbers for healers no longer having spare globals to DPS.

Not entirely so. Adding in party buff skills and then putting the debuff aspect on the damage dealing skills would go a long way without needing to touch potencies.
Alternately, they could have the debuff aspect as a standard effect on damage skills with a clause that Cleric Stance boosts the damage while removing those debuff effects.
It actually would add more play options to Healers, since you could then choose to utilize the support skills more, or focus your spare time on dealing raw damage. The overall result would be the same, the Healer would be adding 1000 dps to the total.
Whether it be through boosting the party or hitting hard itself wouldn't matter as the end result is the same; More party dps.

[CorbinDallas]

AST was a failure from the start, you can't make a WHM/SCH hybrid and expect it to be balanced.