Stop Giving the "Need" Command for Drop Gear in Dungeons to Higher Geared Players!

[Altena]

snip

Just throwing this out there.. Haven't read all your posts so not sure if it's mentioned..

The DF algorithm attempts to avoid matching two of the same roles together, so the chance of seeing 2x SMN, or a SMN and a BLM together (as an example, same can be said about MCH/BRD, DRG/MNK) is significantly lower then what you make it out to be.. Does it happen? Sure, from time to time.. However the likelihood of being contested in a 4-man dungeon is pretty damn slim across the board.

From my understanding, the OP's issues are mainly in 4-man content (specifically levelling and DR:Ex dungeons).. I mean if they are "farming" 8-man content for gear - there is nearly always a weekly loot lock on this content which would essentially discourage people to even lot on stuff unless they absolutely wanted it and used it for their weekly allowance....

Your idea of "Need" for every job is quite short sighted and will only escalate the problem further... That newbie who needs gear for the class they are on will no longer have exclusive rights to it - and newbies would end up getting geared up even SLOWER. I am a little surprised that all of your maths missed that pretty major point..

[Cordie]

[...]

Heard that before, but:
(a) no mention of the algorithm or even an expected bias
(b) accounting for algorithm failures (not enough people queueing, or high-load)
(c) 2 out of 7 queues (as predicted) with another BLM or SMN in a light party seems pretty close to reality in my experience (and I can't trust it is "significantly lower" without an adequate sample number and distance)


I wouldn't add an arbitrary weight there.

My "need" suggestion actually covers everyone: people who want more seals/desynths can roll on more loot with better odds, people who need items for glamours/gearing have more chances of getting them even if they're for another class, and if there is the need to adjust who gets what they can still communicate with the party as others suggested.
The chances of getting an item for gearing/glam, with 5 or 7 categories of items in the mix, are already worse than getting the highest roll out of 4 ppl.

[ColorOfSakura]

I am getting sick and tired of finding a piece of gear I need for one of my Job classes and someone with higher lvl gear who clearly doesn't need it anymore goes and hits the "Need" button anyways and snatches it away!

Higher levels geared players should NOT have the ability to do that and needs to be changed where they have to gamble with their luck through the Greed command like everyone else who's Job class doesn't relate to a certain piece of drop gear in a dungeon.

If you want gear for that job, then run that job through that content. Don't expect to be given gear just because you "need it more" than the higher geared player does. The higher geared player has plenty of reasons to roll Need and has every right to - Seals, Desynthesis, Glamour, Retainer Ventures (to up item levels), etc.

[Valenth]

If you want gear for that job, then run that job through that content. Don't expect to be given gear just because you "need it more" than the higher geared player does. The higher geared player has plenty of reasons to roll Need and has every right to - Seals, Desynthesis, Glamour, Retainer Ventures (to up item levels), etc.

There's truth to this subtle nuance. One that I failed to highlight in my previous responses lately on here.

If you need it for a job you're not on in the dungeon, then you should indeed have played as that job. I can imagine it's frustrating though if you're both on the same job, you being undergeared and the other snatching it away for the mentioned resources. I mean, in that situation the lower geared players needs both those resources and the gear. I'll admit said situation shouldn't last too long as dungeon drops are far from optimal end-game gearing, but it can be a good stepping stone for some weeks. I know I still use an aiming ring on my NIN from EXP roulette purely because it has both CRIT and DET on it and the replacement will take several weeks (first gearing DRG, then tanks, then my NIN). The crafted one sadly isn't better in terms of statweight for me now so yeah.

Of course, such situations are more exceptions rather then the majority. But as mentioned before numerous times by numerous people in the thread: talking is key here. You'll find people can be more open to kindness and understanding if you explain the situation in a few lines (and they can still chose to click "pass" after).

[Worldofwarcraft]

Sucks to be you. Run the dungeon again.

[Valenth]

snippity

Haha, yeah, I'll admit I was a bit angry at that point in time from all the seemingly dismissive posts I read, which was caused when I failed to apply nuance to reading the OP's post. I interpreted as if people were taking the piss out of the concept of caring for fellow players as something nasty. I emotionaly still stand by the actual meaning of those words though and I don't consider it bad to be on that particular high horse, especially when it benefits everyone around me. I'm also glad to a degree the tone of voice actually offended someone enough to reply. It means that person most definitely struggled at one point in their life with the ethics I pointed out by the tone of voice, which is good. But I guess I was a bit overzealous and for the sake of actually reinforcing what I would consider ideal behaviour in society, doing this actually backfires on me. These things ideally should come voluntarilly, without enforcement from me like an angry parent.

Urgh, so much to learn still. I'll leave it at that. Thanks for the point-out Saito_S

Ps. Back in the days I was literally made aware of need/greed etiquette and on the Chaos (EU) data-center it most definitely seemed like people adhered to it whenever I was in roulettes. Maybe it's, or was I suppose, a European sentiment?

Pps. I welcome bluntness, I'm Dutch. But people can expect me to dissect the lack on rationality if they don't apply some in the mix that is their arguments. You (Saito-S) applied a good dose of it, showed you disagreed and showed understanding both sides. A balance between emotional and rational that can count on my support all the way.

[Underdog2204]

Snip

Ohh get off the soapbox and stop with the sophistry (you are doing it again)... Don't make assumptions about my personal experiences pls. I've been annoyed at RNG not players for RNG favoring them, there is a massive difference between the two. Never not once have I felt an item has been taken from me by another player unfairly, I have always been able to roll need on what I want.

I didn't feel the reply because Saito_S pretty much summed up the sentiment.

Been playing on the Choas datacentre since 2.0, never been such an etiquette. No one person telling you to do something does not reflect sentiments across the entire datacentre. Or you think you are always on the better end of everything "I don't roll need coz I'm so nice", "ahh well maybe your datacentre sucks coz mine was so perfect"... Sure I've not quoted directly but tell me how this is not your argument? :P

However! If you could come up with a rational explanation how this behaviour of mine might actually harm the community as a whole (think Darth Traya's story to Revan on giving a beggar money) rather than emotional arguments and opinions you have without much constructive build-up, then I could very well change my PoV on the issue and actually support your cause. Otherwise we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I await your constructive reply.

One thing I would like to say in regards to above is that my argument is nothing but pragmatic as there is a use for these items outside of just gearing. Your argument is purely emotional and relies on the emotions of yourself and other players. So called me out on being the one basing their opinion on emotion only is rather hypocritical as that is all your argument, you have nothing else.

The pragamtic argument you don't want to listen to and keep going back to talking about your feelings, so tell me how you want a discussion?

[Altena]

My "need" suggestion actually covers everyone: people who want more seals/desynths can roll on more loot with better odds, people who need items for glamours/gearing have more chances of getting them even if they're for another class, and if there is the need to adjust who gets what they can still communicate with the party as others suggested.
The chances of getting an item for gearing/glam, with 5 or 7 categories of items in the mix, are already worse than getting the highest roll out of 4 ppl.

Eh? That makes 0 sense..

Newbie Tank, who only has a Tank (no other class to gear as they are a newbie) runs through a dungeon and the Tank body drops.
How does it benefit the newbie that is trying to gear if everyone can roll on it?

That is the whole point this thread was created. A player was complaining about high geared people getting gear that the newbie needs for upgrades.
A lot of people are saying that if they need gear for a certain class then they should play that class for the content so they can get loot priority.
At least with the current system, you can have priority on a certain class by playing that class.

Your "suggestion" effectively eliminates that option. The only people it benefits are those that are going for seals. You turn a forced greed system into a "greed in good faith" system in which case I don't trust the community for that. Do you?

The current system is fine. Eliminating the class-based Need / Greed system gives too much advantage to those that don't care what piece of gear it is because it will just be converted into seals.

[Viki]

the major differences is the different "needs" people might have on a piece of gear is this.

1. Need/greed for Seals. quick turn in for 400-1200 seals, doesnt care which piece of gear.
2. Need/greed for Desynth. again sorta like same above, you make it go poof for desynth. still need/greed it again. However more specfic items applies
3. Need/greed for Glamour. will most likely NEVER turn in for seals and will hold onto it forever, never needing it again exceppt for 2 above options.
4. Need for Upgrade. This 1 should get all priority tbh. Its something that directly affects their ilvl and helps increase speed of run even by an extremely marginal amount depending on the ilvl increase.
5. Greed for Upgrade. This like #4 is still technically an upgrade but for offjobs. To me this 1 is the same as glamours. They wont need it again except for option #1, 2 if they get rid of it.

The reason i feel strongly about this list... is watching some jackwagon get a piece of gear especially hard to get items in Coil, Alex, Extremes, and any of the 24mans (Especially the 24mans) RUBS ME THE WRONG WAY. Its even insulting. 4man greeding for seals doesnt bother me as much as the hard to obtain 1s listed. To me this 1 is the same as glamours. They wont need it again except for option #1, 2 if they get rid of it.

[Cordie]

[...]

If anything, my proposal will change a "forced-greed" system into a "forced-need", and I see nothing wrong if it takes good faith to adjust everyone's priorities on a case-by-case basis -still have party chat for that.

As for the newbie's need for gear there is nothing special about it:

I need GC seals, and I need desynth levels.
Therefore I need the gear just as much as you do.