/Play Dead

[kuma_aus]

This is silly, but there's no use arguing with you. I'll simply state that I do not agree that SE should 1) be selling basic emotes on the cash shop and 2) that they should be so ridiculously priced. When free-to-play MMOs handle their cash shops better than your pay-to-play MMO, you know there is a problem.

I don't think you really know how F2P MMOs handle cash shops. Normally there are standard basic items you can buy upfront. And then there's super rare cosmetics that you can win in a loot bag that costs like $5. Most people spend $50+ to win the item, some lucky people get it in their first $20 others spend $100 only to get it to drop once. And when you spend $50, $100, $200 or more, you get a bonus outfit for the different points or bonus items.

And to top it all off, all of these are tradeable in game. Normally these super rare costumes are close to the most expensive items in the game. And to make the value of money worth it, the greatest gear in the game can be sold as well. And this repeats every week when a brand new costume is released every now and then or an older super rare costume is re-released.

So to put it in terms of FFXIV. Imagine if the poncho was a super rare item. It is released for a weekend special loot box. During this weekend special, if you spend $50 on the cash shop you get a bonus costume, say a basic non HQ and less detailed Thavarian body. $100 you get basic Minfilia haircut (Premium Minfilia haircut gives you bonus stats when equiped and is in a special loot box that will be released some other weekend). $200 and you get one of the super rare items released during early ARR. Everything in the cash shop is tradeable, so you can sell all the bonus items you get to instantly get rich in game. Also The Creator Savage gear is tradeable so someone with enough gil can purchase a full set and have completely geared up a class. Also in PvP, having better gear helps, there isn't any item level sync.

Now repeat that every week with brand new cosmetic items or older rare ones re-released. Sure it's not P2W, since F2P players can just clear Alexander The Creator Savage themselves to get the gear. But don't forget to even be geared enough to clear Alexander Savage you'll need to spend gil on older gear as well.

[Roda]

[examples of a final fantasy xiv game that doesn't exist]

1. Just because it could be worse, doesn't mean you shouldn't criticise something.
2. There are plenty of non-predatory f2p/b2p mmos that have a basic laying down pose and returning event items as a part of their non-paying experience.

[kuma_aus]

1. Just because it could be worse, doesn't mean you shouldn't criticise something.

When did I say that? Someone said F2P MMO cash shops are better than XIV cash shops and I'm just mentioning how that's so far from the truth. Sure criticize the XIV cash shop if you want to, but making claims like how cash shops in F2P MMOs are handled better than XIV is a huge lie.

2. There are plenty of non-predatory f2p/b2p mmos that have a basic laying down pose and returning event items as a part of their non-paying experience.

Even if those are part of the non-paying experience, what is in their paying experience is far far far worse than anything in XIV.

[Roda]

When did I say that? Someone said F2P MMO cash shops are better than XIV cash shops and I'm just mentioning how that's so far from the truth. Sure criticize the XIV cash shop if you want to, but making claims like how cash shops in F2P MMOs are handled better than XIV is a huge lie.

Then I am confused as to the purpose of your defence of SE's double dipping practices if not to try and shut down criticisms against xiv's cash shop because.....

Even if those are part of the non-paying experience, what is in their paying experience is far far far worse than anything in XIV.

F2P games done right should not have a negative feeling paying experience. I've never felt robbed by a purchase in wildstar, GW2, or warframe, because they are free games that have been handled well. They've all got some kind of integration where free players can access cash shop content if they play the game enough. Don't want to buy madame fey coins in wildstar but want the goodies? Make the plat to buy it off the auction house when people eventually sell them. Don't want to buy black lion keys in GW2? Same deal, buy the skins off the trading post. Want a cool new skin in warframe? Farm up some prime parts or rare mods and trade players for cash shop currency.
The F2P mmo market is no longer the korean p2w grinding wastelands it once was. Naunet's specific f2p experiences are accurate and valid.

This bias against f2p games makes it look like you're setting the bar lower for SE because we don't have lockboxes on our cash shop.
And if you're not, I truly do not understand the point of your hyperbolic attempt to invalidate Naunet's experiences.

[kuma_aus]

F2P games done right should not have a negative feeling paying experience. I've never felt robbed by a purchase in wildstar, GW2, or warframe, because they are free games that have been handled well. They've all got some kind of integration where free players can access cash shop content if they play the game enough. Don't want to buy madame fey coins in wildstar but want the goodies? Make the plat to buy it off the auction house when people eventually sell them. Don't want to buy black lion keys in GW2? Same deal, buy the skins off the trading post. Want a cool new skin in warframe? Farm up some prime parts or rare mods and trade players for cash shop currency.
The F2P mmo market is no longer the korean p2w grinding wastelands it once was. Naunet's specific f2p experiences are accurate and valid.

This bias against f2p games makes it look like you're setting the bar lower for SE because we don't have lockboxes on our cash shop.
And if you're not, I truly do not understand the point of your hyperbolic attempt to invalidate Naunet's experiences.

So if XIV was like that, you would spend gil to get cash shop items?

Let me ask you, what else can you buy with the in game currency in these games? Most F2P MMOs I've played, the very best gear you can get can be sold. So in terms of XIV, upgraded Scripture and Alexander Savage gear would be able to be sold.

Also you never talked about the points I brought up which was how cash shop is implemented. You only talked about how F2P people can get cash shop items. As a cash shop spender, is XIV or the F2P MMOs better or worse?

The point I'm discussing is

free-to-play MMOs handle their cash shops better than your pay-to-play MMO, you know there is a problem.

How easy is it to get the rare items released on the cash shop in these F2P MMOs? How much money do you need to spend to get them? Also how often do new cash shop items come out? Is it viable for someone in these F2P MMOs to get every single cosmetic/exclusive cash shop items without selling their soul to the game and grinding for gold 24/7? Can someone in these F2P MMOs just spend $1000 on the game and have BIS in a weekend?

[Atlaworks]

How easy is it to get the rare items released on the cash shop in these F2P MMOs? How much money do you need to spend to get them? Also how often do new cash shop items come out? Is it viable for someone in these F2P MMOs to get every single cosmetic/exclusive cash shop items without selling their soul to the game and grinding for gold 24/7? Can someone in these F2P MMOs just spend $1000 on the game and have BIS in a weekend?

Well if we're talking GW2, a game I have adequate experience in, limited-time cash shop items can be acquired through A) yo wallet, B) Getting cash shop currency via completing achievement milestones, or C) a baked-in market option the game has where players can exchange cash shop currency and in-game traditional currency based on community-decided ratios, a la an auction house.

Only one of those three options cost me bones, and it's usually less than seven.

The only thing that's really roulette-based on GW2 are dyes, since rare dye packs are on the cash shop and tend to be very limited-time only, so you can end up buying a lot of those. Or- they give you a special nontradeable dye kit every birthday your character has that lets you select one of whatever dye you want. So they still let you circumvent the randomness factor there too, as a reward for sticking with them.

...Man, GW2 is a good game.

[Roda]

So if XIV was like that, you would spend gil to get cash shop items?

Yes. Though with the way xiv's economy is, I wouldn't be able to afford it because every time I swap to a crafter I creep ever closer to the precipice of death.
Would I be happy about it? Still no. SE is still double dipping and it's skeevy.

Let me ask you, what else can you buy with the in game currency in these games? Most F2P MMOs I've played, the very best gear you can get can be sold. So in terms of XIV, upgraded Scripture and Alexander Savage gear would be able to be sold.

It might just be the 4am talking to me but this question is kind of hard for me to understand, but here it goes:

In wildstar, you have to do the content to get the best gear. You can buy tokens to help runing (essentially materia melding) easier, but you can also get these tokens with an omnibits (a currency that randomly, but frequently, drops when playing the game). Most of it is like XIV with it being BoP, though a few rare raid drops are BoE. Still, none of its access is directly touched by the cash shop.
You can buy almost everything off the cash shop with omnibits. Madame Fey coins (rng tokens) are not available for omnibits, but the rewards from spending the coins can be traded. You can't buy a subscription, or bundles with subscription time included with omnibits, but you can buy CREDD (wow token, plex, etc) from other players with plat. And like there's one bundle that they gave away in a humble bundle one time that can't be bought with in-game currency.

GW2, same deal, though I've never raided and am fairly casual. Best gear is not touched by the gem store, you have to do the content / craft the gear, and it cannot be traded. Some gear can be locked behind a paywall, but the content is free if you log in on the month of its release (the game has no sub so there's no excuse not to), and you can purchase this content by converting your gold to gems (cash shop currency). In fact, you can purchase anything off the gem store using gold because you can directly convert your gold into gems. (though it is expensive for a casual player, but I've managed to do it quite a few times to get things I really want)

Warframe is the only one of the three that sells gear for money, though it's a radically different game than the previous two, and yup you guessed it, you can obtain the gear through in-game means. Most of it is through grinding, as its actual non-real-money currency is basically used for the most basic basic starter weapons and warframes, utility stuff, and consumables. You can't even trade that currency with other players. Though, that kind of directed the game's economy to a very interesting bartering system. If someone needs something like a mod or a prime part, they can trade you cash shop currency (directly) for that item. Do that enough and you'll be able to buy whatever you need. It's pretty much a more archaic version of GW2's system.
(Honestly even though it sells gear, it's cash shop's pull is the weakest for me since I've never really felt compelled to buy anything from it due to the game being all about learning how to use your weapons and warframes as you grind for newer weapons and warframes. It's an almost purely horizontal progression game, so it's less like buying alexander gear and more like buying something to unlock LNC (level 1) so you don't have to go all the way out to gridania and talk to the npc. (yeah, the weapons and warframes aren't ranked up at all when you buy them. The main reason to buy them is to get a free inventory slot and potato, imo.))

Also you never talked about the points I brought up which was how cash shop is implemented. You only talked about how F2P people can get cash shop items. As a cash shop spender, is XIV or the F2P MMOs better or worse

...I am not familiar with someone's main experience of a game being through its cash shop and not its content, but I'll try. .____.;;;
Wildstar: Someone's shopping experience in Wildstar is going to be far more pleasant because they are getting more bang for their buck.
-Their dyes are, technically, infinitely cheaper than XIV's dyes, at roughly two to five dollars per dye, you only need to purchase them once, and they have infinite uses across all characters on your regional account.
-Costumes range from like two dollars for a bundle of five outfits, to a little over 15 dollars for one. These unlock for all characters on acquisition.
-Mounts range from just under 10 dollars to under 45 dollars for a bundle of three mounts. (just over 25 dollars is the most expensive account-wide non-bundle mount)
-Decor is radically less expensive ranging from a singular dollar for skys, grounds, and bundles (BUNDLES!) of up to seven items, less than five dollars for up to 30 item packs, and at most a little over 15 dollars for a house (with several remodeling options available to you)
-Their pets range from around 2 dollars for a single character, 5 for account-bound, to a little under 10 for single character, to a little under 15 for account bound. This is the only category that xiv would excel in if we didn't add in the mandatory box purchase and monthly subscription costs.
-They have non-consumable toys to add a bit of fun on top of your fun.
-They have convenience items that are slightly stronger boosts than the available in-game ones that can boost your gold earnings, exp gains, rep, etc. They're not so drastic, so they won't break anything, and of course they cost like a dollar for an hour, 4ish for 6 hours.
-Their name change costs less than 10 dollars.
-And their storage expansions are technically infinitely cheaper since they do not require a subscription service to access.

The only thing not super positive is that you can only purchase cash shop currency in increments of the american bill starting at 5 dollars. Though there's a positive on top of that where, if you spend more money in one go, you'll get more cash shop currency to spend.

GW2: Similar to wildstar yet again
-Most outfits are a flat 10 dollars, available to all characters, and don't take up inventory slots. With some dipping down to less than 10 dollars. None of these are gender locked.
-Due to how the story is structured, you can't change race, but the closest equivalent to a fantasia is like 5 dollars,
-name change is the same price
-Boosters for currency gains and extra trash drops for like a buck and a half
-Toys that are around 5 bucks
-character slots at 10 dollars per character (you start with 2 free slots, 5 if you bought the box) No subscription needed to keep accessing these characters, though you do need alts in this game if you want to explore different classes.
-bank expansions that don't require a sub, at 10 per tab.
-pets are like 5ish dollars
-And like a bunch of cheap convenience items and permanent cosmetic things.
(it's late dont make me type moooore DX GW2 has a large shop blah blah blah it's less restrictive and mostly cheaper, it has the same incremental currency conversion as wildstar but minus the bulk purchase bonus.)

Warframe: Gosh, I have no idea. I got a 75% off coupon, bought 100 dollars worth for 25 dollars a couple years ago, and i'm still struggling to get rid of that currency.
-The gear is there if you don't want to grind or get rid of the gear you did grind but no longer play.
-There's some really cheap cosmetic stuff and neat skins.
-you mostly have to use the cash shop currency, but there's some user-created designs on there that require steam money.
-There's some animation unlocks so that you can have one warframe idles on a different warframe. It's like pennies for all I know.
-I'm not logging into warframe to look at the prices.
-It's really all convenience.
*passes out on keyboard*

The point I'm discussing is [A quote]

And I'm saying that point is valid due to, well, hopefully you read all that.
Hopefully you can read all that.
Dear god it's almost 5am. I have to get up in the morning. @@

1 How easy is it to get the rare items released on the cash shop in these F2P MMOs? 2 How much money do you need to spend to get them? 3 Also how often do new cash shop items come out? 4 Is it viable for someone in these F2P MMOs to get every single cosmetic/exclusive cash shop items without selling their soul to the game and grinding for gold 24/7? 5 Can someone in these F2P MMOs just spend $1000 on the game and have BIS in a weekend?

Define rare, because mooooost of the stuff is cash shop exclusive (save for when wildstar brings back old seasonal cash shop items to be available for the event currencies).
Also define need.
Also define easy.
A lot of this is subjective, but for me my experiences are:

Wildstar:
1 Quite easily. Omnibits drop very regularly if you're subscribed. (and you can subscribe for free using credd)
2 Eventually, I have no idea. but very little, considering omnibits exist. There are a few large packs, but they come with like 6month subscription bundles as well as the items.
3 They rotate them out every so often. Mostly seasonally or on big content updates.
4 It depends on how fast they want the items, and how long they're willing to wait for them to be cycled in. It'll take a while for sure if they're going full f2p with no credd or any kind of perks, but you can optimize it by a lot. Still have to play pretty hardcore to get enough omnibits though, at least if you want the new items within the month. (but the game is fun so I wouldn't call it grinding)
5 No. God no.
(take note that I'm like 99.9999999999999% sure that this is the game Naunet is referring to when she mentions a f2p game with a good cash shop)

GW2:
1 Since I'm super duper casual I'd say it's of neutral difficulty. I could probably grind up the gold to convert to gems faster than I can grind the gil to buy the newest dyable glamour gear.
2 "need" means technically zero in this case, with the gem conversion.
3 I wanna say bimonthly? It's regular, but not super frequent. Mostly on content updates. They also cycle through their stuff.
4 I am not good at getting money in this mmo. Most regular players have like 100x more than me, easily. So I'm gonna say It's plausibly viable, but you'd have to be one of those guys who plays the market. Be good with numbers and stuff.
5 Man, that weekend thing makes this difficult. It would help, but not by much. Eventually, I could see it helping you if you want to use it to play the market to get the ultimate convenience weapon, but you still need to do the content to actually get the BiS gear.

Warframe:
1 The user-created stuff needs raw money, there's no getting around that, but the more you like the game, the easier it is to buy things with plat.
2 you only need money for the user-created stuff, and... iunno, there's not much on there. Though there are some rare exclusive icons (like 200x200 jpegs) and fancy smancy capes that are tied to 100 dollar bundles. All the actually fun stuff in the bundle is available in-game however.
3 With content updates every couple of months, and seasonal stuff. The big fancy bundles are rare.
4 Hahahahahahahaha. This is third person shooter magic space ninja diablo. Grinding is the game and you'll like it! (no really, you will. It's actually fun.) Save for the stuff you have to pay pure money for, Sure you can do it since they don't take anything off of the store. You'll get the plat eventually.
5 Nope. Even though it's mostly horizontal progression, there's still a progression for its campaign and the time it takes to build your mod deck. Also BiS is the loadout you perform best with, and you can't figure that out in a weekend.



And remember, none of these games are charging for something so basic as the emote to lie down.


I'll probably edit this post to make it more readable when it's not "Oh dear god why" o'clock.

[Naunet]

I don't think you really know how F2P MMOs handle cash shops.

I PLAY a f2p game and have played several others in the past. I definitely know how different f2p games handle their cash shops. In WildStar, I can buy literally everything in the cash shop with Omnibits earned simply by playing the game - and the conversion rate isn't even that bad, plus I get a bonus to my Omnibits by being subbed. What's more, their prices are way more reasonable and everything is account-wide. A costume costs $8-9, and you unlock it in the holo-wardrobe where it is available for all your characters you ever make past or present. Decor packs can include upwards of 50 items and cost less than $5. Dyes are around $2 and unlock account-wide plus are not consumable.

Oh, and it's free-to-play. When FFXIV no longer requires a subscription to play, then it can do whatever it wants with its cash shop. For now, it should at LEAST be better than free-to-play games.

How easy is it to get the rare items released on the cash shop in these F2P MMOs? How much money do you need to spend to get them? Also how often do new cash shop items come out? Is it viable for someone in these F2P MMOs to get every single cosmetic/exclusive cash shop items without selling their soul to the game and grinding for gold 24/7? Can someone in these F2P MMOs just spend $1000 on the game and have BIS in a weekend?

In WildStar, I have bought a grand total of two things with real money outside of the subscription that I choose to maintain because I like the perks and want to support the game. Both times I spent real money, I spent it because I wanted to demonstrate support for them releasing a particular item. I presently own all costumes, all dyes, all unlocks for decor/holo-wardrobe/costume limits, and a large number of pets and mounts. I earned all of those through playing the game and earning Omnibits.