Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

[HoodRat]

and if you think doing damage isn't part of a tanks role then you don't know how tanks work - doing higher damage grants more agro - its all part of their role and doesn't require any (or very minimal) adjustment to play.

Since you don't seem to know much about tanking, let me educate you. There's this thing called tank stance. It increases enmity gained but lowers dps. And, for drk and pld, their enmity combos are also their lowest dps combos. So basically, you're trading dps for enmity. Now, if the tank knows what they're doing and dps aren't afraid to use their enmity CDs if they have to, a tank can stay in dps stance (and avoid their enmity combo in the case of drk and pld) for a long time. Similar to how a healer can stay in cleric stance for a long time if they know what they're doing.

[Ghishlain]

The very definition of hinder is to create difficulties for (someone or something), resulting in delay or obstruction.

I don't know how that can be any clearer for people. The issue I have personally with healers who "only" choose to heal, or ANY role who "only" chooses to do the minimum, is that they're being selfish/lazy and hindering my playing time. I don't have nearly as much time to game like most people do, so when I do I want to progress and get things done efficiently to keep the workflow going smoothly. As a boss you wouldn't hire an employee if you knew they were just doing enough to get by would you? No, you wouldnt. Same concept applies here, and that's where the problem derives from. Selfish and lazy players costing others. No one is expecting perfection or pro skills, just the courtesy to play the role they chose FULLY.

It's pretty clear to me that the base expectation pace of a dungeon clear doesn't not incorporate healer DPS. Therefore a healer not DPSing is not hindering the completion time of a dungeon.

Again, delay is a function of the expected metric for the clear time. Healer = 0 DPS is the expected metric for a clear time. Therefore a healer doing DPS = 0 is not delaying your run.

Now if you, as a player, have a higher expectation and metric, then you should probably be using things like PF to find a party of similar expectations. I will also add that a healer who's WANTS to do 0 DPS should also do the same thing, however. If you have specific expectations, you should be generating a party for those expectations - this will be true for either side of the argument.

As for the real life example, you only get to choose who you're hiring if you generate a PF for it. If you're leaving it to DF you're throwing all expectations to the wind and letting the developers decide who to give you - it's a crap shoot that only you can avoid.

hindrance - noun
A thing that provides resistance, delay, or obstruction to something or someone.

delay - verb
Make (someone or something) late or slow.

1. Damage as per developers design speeds up the run.
2. Not dealing damage as per developer's design slows down the run.
-> A. Thus, a person not dealing damage slows down the run.

3. Slowing down the run equals creating a delay as per definition of the word.
4. A thing that creates a delay is a hindrance as per definition of the word.
- Refer to A
-> B. Players who don't deal damage are a hindrance as per developer's design and the definition of those words.

QED.

This is assuming it's a delay if the healer dose 0 DPS. If dungeons are built around 0 DPS as a healer - there is no delay. The only time a healer will end up delaying the instance is you die and have to wait for weakness / run back to the point from a wipe.

If clear times are designed around 30-45 minute runs a min ilvl with 0 DPS contribution, that's the base line for the run. If a healer who doesn't DPS but you still clear the dungeon in 25 minutes, the 0 DPS healer hasn't delayed the run. Now if the healer who DPS brings the run time down to 20 minutes, than that is a BONUS to the run.

Where people have issue is the baseline of expectations compared to the devs.

If this were the case, you would have one DPS skill that received traits to increase damage alongside level increases. Or they'd buff the damage component of the "Maim & Mend" traits.

True! But they didn't choose to go this route. Any particular reason why? To me, both ways of doing the DPS increase would still result in a DPS increase that matches the power creep curve they have in mind so it doesn't change the core of my point.

I just can't comprehend how it's considered rude to ask someone to contribute in the party for more than 20% (or less) of the time - especially when the exact same principle is applied to all the jobs: I would ask the same from a tank or DD who'd afk for 80% of the time too. And I do always ask nicely and politely, saying, for example "Hey [healer], since the tank or anyone else isn't taking much damage here, could you please put some DoTs up / use Holy / Gravity?". Just like I'd ask for a BRD to sing Requiem if they're not otherwise doing it.

Then, if the answer is "no, I'm here to only heal", or even worse, "I'm here to /follow the tank and drink coffee while my fairy heals"...



How come it's not considered rude to flat out refuse to contribute as much as the rest of your team, but instead it is considered rude to ask party members to contribute evenly?

Of course I wouldn't support kicking a new healer who's learning their job and the instance and are busy enough with all that without any DPS. But those who're comfortable and familiar with their job and the instance and are simply refusing to be helpful when they could, after being asked to do so in a nice manner, I see no issue kicking.

And you should. Ask, be polite, be respectful. I'm not trying to single you out particularly but the amount of comments of "I'm going to boot you for not DPSing as a healer" is coming to a point where players are refusing to heal because they don't want to deal with that.

Isn't that telling about a larger, community driven, issue on hand?

And yes, it's also not correct for a healer who only heals to be rude and asinine as well. This aspect of the healer community is another wedge driving into the healer community because they obstinately also believe they have no reason to improve.

The entire point of my asking these question in these posts is to try to bring the healer community at least back at the table.

If you want to cultivate a better player base, the first thing we need to do is respectfully understand each other and then try to encourage people to play better. We all come from different facets of life, skill levels, and time constraints. We have to respect those avenues and understand not everyone can play like the other and try to encourage players to reach a higher level of skill with the time and skill levels they do have so we can at least start to re-cultivate a more respectful and higher skill level within the healer community.

Don't turn a blind eye to healer's who don't DPS, but don't be like "DPS OR BOOT" either, which is unfortunately the current perception of ANYONE who is a pro-DPS.

Let's get back to the table and talk about this like ladies and gentlemen, okay? Not belittle or disrespect our fellow player.

[Gemina]

The very definition of hinder is to create difficulties for (someone or something), resulting in delay or obstruction.

I don't know how that can be any clearer for people. The issue I have personally with healers who "only" choose to heal, or ANY role who "only" chooses to do the minimum, is that they're being selfish/lazy and hindering my playing time. I don't have nearly as much time to game like most people do, so when I do I want to progress and get things done efficiently to keep the workflow going smoothly. As a boss you wouldn't hire an employee if you knew they were just doing enough to get by would you? No, you wouldnt. Same concept applies here, and that's where the problem derives from. Selfish and lazy players costing others. No one is expecting perfection or pro skills, just the courtesy to play the role they chose FULLY.

Choose your words carefully if wishing to speak against selfish players. This post is all about you. To add, the job metaphors don't work quite well because no one wants to feel like their play time is work. If anything, healing only in a group is an escapism from all of the adulting we have to do in our everyday lives. However, of course I will always agree and encourage with courteous playstyles, and this does indeed involve more than performing the bare minimum.

[craized]

"tank's job is to hold aggro, ergo they should only care about using their highest emnity combo/aoe skills. How much or little damage they do while doing it is inconsequential, so long as enemies are staying put"

yeah good luck with that. see how long it takes for the dps or healer to drag agro and start getting slotted. keeping up DPS makes a tanks job EASIER.

[HoodRat]

I've only ever seen one person talk about kicking healers for not dpsing. And I can understand and agree with him because he does it in endgame content. And in endgame, if you're not dpsing as a healer, you either don't know how to heal well or you're just lazy. And if you don't know your role well or you're lazy, I don't know why you're even trying to do endgame content in the first place.

[bounddreamer]

"tank's job is to hold aggro, ergo they should only care about using their highest emnity combo/aoe skills. How much or little damage they do while doing it is inconsequential, so long as enemies are staying put"

yeah good luck with that. see how long it takes for the dps or healer to drag agro and start getting slotted. keeping up DPS makes a tanks job EASIER.

ACTUALLY

Except for Warrior, the highest damage combo on the tank jobs generates the least aggro.

If I want to be bad, I can stand around in Grit spamming unleash (high aggro low damage) and refreshing my MP til the cows come home. Who cares how long the pulls take? I have aggro, that's my only job cause I'm a tank. o

That's the mindset you're advocating. In order to display some amount of skill above that of a turnip, most players will use a variety of abilities from their toolkit at every pull in order to not only hold aggro but do a fair amount of damage as well.

[HoodRat]

"tank's job is to hold aggro, ergo they should only care about using their highest emnity combo/aoe skills. How much or little damage they do while doing it is inconsequential, so long as enemies are staying put"

yeah good luck with that. see how long it takes for the dps or healer to drag agro and start getting slotted. keeping up DPS makes a tanks job EASIER.

It's actually very easy. If I sit in defiance the entire time, I could just use butcher's block combo occasionally and then stand around doing nothing else without ever losing the target.

[craized]

you assume incorrectly. i also play paladin. but im not talking about stance. im talking rotation, and in shield oath, you still need need to hit those damage buttons to retain agro. but that's for the lesson eh?

and even if this wasent the case. you can still just carry on as you normally would doing the same thing you normally do, you don't have to change anything. its just not the same and does not work as an analogy of the healing/dps debate.

[Feyona]

Yes, you should be excluded if you don't or "can't" DPS. Everybody else is using around 95% of their GCDs in an encounter. You're using around 20% if you don't DPS. They're working almost 5 times harder than you are! What makes you so special to think this is okay?

Also, every class has around the same number of skills. There's nothing special about a healer's toolkit. Have you even looked at optimal DPS class rotations? How complex they can be? I really don't think you have. SMN's optimal openers, for example, have always been a ridiculous feat to pull off effectively.

Soooo this is a game that wants a reputation for excluding a large proportion of players from its content does it? In that statement right there is elitism. I could think of more words to describe that type of behaviour too. 20% where does that come from If Im healing for around 5000 hps, I can assure you Im using my skills 100% for almost 100% active time. Any way If you find the requirements for healing shoots up cos of your complaints about healers got nothing to do dont complain you cant heal it cos your more used to dps

[bounddreamer]

Soooo this is a game that wants a reputation for excluding a large proportion of players from its content does it? In that statement right there is elitism. I could think of more words to describe that type of behaviour too.

You were talking about endgame, savage and extreme content. Now you're shifting to a more broadly applied, general statement.

Stop trying to have it both ways and willfully misunderstanding what people are saying.