Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

[Taika]

While I won't disagree with laziness if a healer refuses to DPS, I have to ask - if the Dev's have stated healer DPS contribution is not calculated into their design, why would a healer not DPSing be a hindrance to the party? They're performing their baseline and expected duties by completing their healing role. Any DPS added by the healer is a bonus to party.

They're a hinderance to their party because they have the potential to bring this huge benefit to their group and they refuse to do so. Just like a BRD who refuses to sing when they could boost their caster DPS or their healer has died and needs MP is a hinderance to their group. Bard songs aren't required for clearing any content, either, but it doesn't make it any more acceptable to refuse singing.

And it doesn't really matter what Dev's have claimed on the topic, when we the players know that Alexander Gordias or Midas could not even be beaten without healer DPS when they were released - even with the best possible DPS players in the world. Healer DPS was obviously needed to be able to beat that content.

[Ghishlain]

The problem with that is that devs wouldn't make that remark since they gave all healers a varying arsenal of dps abilities. Healers do very good dps as well. The other issue is that if a healer isn't dpsing it means enemies aren't dying as fast. Which in turn means more healing, more time involved, yet still less overall activity from the healer. That's the very definition of hindering/inefficient. Players can multitask easily in this game. They're simply choosing the lazy route.

It makes more sense to toss up the necessary regens/shields/buffs and then dps when the chances are there.

It's pretty easy to counter the "I got more DPS skills" argument. DPS kits got more potent DPS rotations and thus mobs would naturally get more HP to suit. In order to keep healer clears of MSQ at a decent time, we give them more abilities to DPS with. Power creep and the like.

The definition of hindering is a function of the baseline required performance of the healer. The only time a healer is hindering the party is if they're letting their party die.

Again, I will say I don't disagree with the sentiment of lazy. I will disagree with the sentiment that a healer that only heals is a hindrance to the party.

They're a hinderance to their party because they have the potential to bring this huge benefit to their group and they refuse to do so. Just like a BRD who refuses to sing when they could boost their caster DPS or their healer has died and needs MP is a hinderance to their group. Bard songs aren't required for clearing any content, either, but it doesn't make it any more acceptable to refuse singing.

And it doesn't really matter what Dev's have claimed on the topic, when we the players know that Alexander Gordias or Midas could not even be beaten without healer DPS when they were released - even with the best possible DPS players in the world. Healer DPS was obviously needed to be able to beat that content.

Inefficient doesn't equate to hindrance in this aspect of the game. A healer who chooses only to heal is moving the party along the pace that the developers have intended. The only time a healer is hindering the party is when they're letting people die.

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I will say this to the pro-healer DPS players - until you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that a healer who doesn't DPS is a hindrance to the party as per the developers design, your statements are only opinions - not facts. If you're booting healers who don't DPS, you're just driving a massive wedge into the healer community that shouldn't exist.

I'm highlighting the obstinate stubbornness showcased in a portion of the pro-healer-DPS crowd about their opinion = fact when it's not and thus entitles them to boot or be asininely rude and disrespectful to healers who choose only to heal.

[dotsforlife]

snip

The very definition of hinder is to create difficulties for (someone or something), resulting in delay or obstruction.

I don't know how that can be any clearer for people. The issue I have personally with healers who "only" choose to heal, or ANY role who "only" chooses to do the minimum, is that they're being selfish/lazy and hindering my playing time. I don't have nearly as much time to game like most people do, so when I do I want to progress and get things done efficiently to keep the workflow going smoothly. As a boss you wouldn't hire an employee if you knew they were just doing enough to get by would you? No, you wouldnt. Same concept applies here, and that's where the problem derives from. Selfish and lazy players costing others. No one is expecting perfection or pro skills, just the courtesy to play the role they chose FULLY.

[Gemina]

The very definition of hinder is to create difficulties for (someone or something), resulting in delay or obstruction.

I don't know how that can be any clearer for people. The issue I have personally with healers who "only" choose to heal, or ANY role who "only" chooses to do the minimum, is that they're being selfish/lazy and hindering my playing time. I don't have nearly as much time to game like most people do, so when I do I want to progress and get things done efficiently to keep the workflow going smoothly. As a boss you wouldn't hire an employee if you knew they were just doing enough to get by would you? No, you wouldnt. Same concept applies here, and that's where the problem derives from. Selfish and lazy players costing others. No one is expecting perfection or pro skills, just the courtesy to play the role they chose FULLY.

Choose your words carefully if wishing to speak against selfish players. This post is all about you. To add, the job metaphors don't work quite well because no one wants to feel like their play time is work. If anything, healing only in a group is an escapism from all of the adulting we have to do in our everyday lives. However, of course I will always agree and encourage with courteous playstyles, and this does indeed involve more than performing the bare minimum.

[Taika]

I'm highlighting the obstinate stubbornness showcased in a portion of the pro-healer-DPS crowd about their opinion = fact when it's not and thus entitles them to boot or be asininely rude and disrespectful to healers who choose only to heal.

I just can't comprehend how it's considered rude to ask someone to contribute in the party for more than 20% (or less) of the time - especially when the exact same principle is applied to all the jobs: I would ask the same from a tank or DD who'd afk for 80% of the time too. And I do always ask nicely and politely, saying, for example "Hey [healer], since the tank or anyone else isn't taking much damage here, could you please put some DoTs up / use Holy / Gravity?". Just like I'd ask for a BRD to sing Requiem if they're not otherwise doing it.

Then, if the answer is "no, I'm here to only heal", or even worse, "I'm here to /follow the tank and drink coffee while my fairy heals"...



How come it's not considered rude to flat out refuse to contribute as much as the rest of your team, but instead it is considered rude to ask party members to contribute evenly?

Of course I wouldn't support kicking a new healer who's learning their job and the instance and are busy enough with all that without any DPS. But those who're comfortable and familiar with their job and the instance and are simply refusing to be helpful when they could, after being asked to do so in a nice manner, I see no issue kicking.

[Ghishlain]

The very definition of hinder is to create difficulties for (someone or something), resulting in delay or obstruction.

I don't know how that can be any clearer for people. The issue I have personally with healers who "only" choose to heal, or ANY role who "only" chooses to do the minimum, is that they're being selfish/lazy and hindering my playing time. I don't have nearly as much time to game like most people do, so when I do I want to progress and get things done efficiently to keep the workflow going smoothly. As a boss you wouldn't hire an employee if you knew they were just doing enough to get by would you? No, you wouldnt. Same concept applies here, and that's where the problem derives from. Selfish and lazy players costing others. No one is expecting perfection or pro skills, just the courtesy to play the role they chose FULLY.

It's pretty clear to me that the base expectation pace of a dungeon clear doesn't not incorporate healer DPS. Therefore a healer not DPSing is not hindering the completion time of a dungeon.

Again, delay is a function of the expected metric for the clear time. Healer = 0 DPS is the expected metric for a clear time. Therefore a healer doing DPS = 0 is not delaying your run.

Now if you, as a player, have a higher expectation and metric, then you should probably be using things like PF to find a party of similar expectations. I will also add that a healer who's WANTS to do 0 DPS should also do the same thing, however. If you have specific expectations, you should be generating a party for those expectations - this will be true for either side of the argument.

As for the real life example, you only get to choose who you're hiring if you generate a PF for it. If you're leaving it to DF you're throwing all expectations to the wind and letting the developers decide who to give you - it's a crap shoot that only you can avoid.

hindrance - noun
A thing that provides resistance, delay, or obstruction to something or someone.

delay - verb
Make (someone or something) late or slow.

1. Damage as per developers design speeds up the run.
2. Not dealing damage as per developer's design slows down the run.
-> A. Thus, a person not dealing damage slows down the run.

3. Slowing down the run equals creating a delay as per definition of the word.
4. A thing that creates a delay is a hindrance as per definition of the word.
- Refer to A
-> B. Players who don't deal damage are a hindrance as per developer's design and the definition of those words.

QED.

This is assuming it's a delay if the healer dose 0 DPS. If dungeons are built around 0 DPS as a healer - there is no delay. The only time a healer will end up delaying the instance is you die and have to wait for weakness / run back to the point from a wipe.

If clear times are designed around 30-45 minute runs a min ilvl with 0 DPS contribution, that's the base line for the run. If a healer who doesn't DPS but you still clear the dungeon in 25 minutes, the 0 DPS healer hasn't delayed the run. Now if the healer who DPS brings the run time down to 20 minutes, than that is a BONUS to the run.

Where people have issue is the baseline of expectations compared to the devs.

If this were the case, you would have one DPS skill that received traits to increase damage alongside level increases. Or they'd buff the damage component of the "Maim & Mend" traits.

True! But they didn't choose to go this route. Any particular reason why? To me, both ways of doing the DPS increase would still result in a DPS increase that matches the power creep curve they have in mind so it doesn't change the core of my point.

I just can't comprehend how it's considered rude to ask someone to contribute in the party for more than 20% (or less) of the time - especially when the exact same principle is applied to all the jobs: I would ask the same from a tank or DD who'd afk for 80% of the time too. And I do always ask nicely and politely, saying, for example "Hey [healer], since the tank or anyone else isn't taking much damage here, could you please put some DoTs up / use Holy / Gravity?". Just like I'd ask for a BRD to sing Requiem if they're not otherwise doing it.

Then, if the answer is "no, I'm here to only heal", or even worse, "I'm here to /follow the tank and drink coffee while my fairy heals"...



How come it's not considered rude to flat out refuse to contribute as much as the rest of your team, but instead it is considered rude to ask party members to contribute evenly?

Of course I wouldn't support kicking a new healer who's learning their job and the instance and are busy enough with all that without any DPS. But those who're comfortable and familiar with their job and the instance and are simply refusing to be helpful when they could, after being asked to do so in a nice manner, I see no issue kicking.

And you should. Ask, be polite, be respectful. I'm not trying to single you out particularly but the amount of comments of "I'm going to boot you for not DPSing as a healer" is coming to a point where players are refusing to heal because they don't want to deal with that.

Isn't that telling about a larger, community driven, issue on hand?

And yes, it's also not correct for a healer who only heals to be rude and asinine as well. This aspect of the healer community is another wedge driving into the healer community because they obstinately also believe they have no reason to improve.

The entire point of my asking these question in these posts is to try to bring the healer community at least back at the table.

If you want to cultivate a better player base, the first thing we need to do is respectfully understand each other and then try to encourage people to play better. We all come from different facets of life, skill levels, and time constraints. We have to respect those avenues and understand not everyone can play like the other and try to encourage players to reach a higher level of skill with the time and skill levels they do have so we can at least start to re-cultivate a more respectful and higher skill level within the healer community.

Don't turn a blind eye to healer's who don't DPS, but don't be like "DPS OR BOOT" either, which is unfortunately the current perception of ANYONE who is a pro-DPS.

Let's get back to the table and talk about this like ladies and gentlemen, okay? Not belittle or disrespect our fellow player.

[HoodRat]

I've only ever seen one person talk about kicking healers for not dpsing. And I can understand and agree with him because he does it in endgame content. And in endgame, if you're not dpsing as a healer, you either don't know how to heal well or you're just lazy. And if you don't know your role well or you're lazy, I don't know why you're even trying to do endgame content in the first place.

[Feyona]

I've only ever seen one person talk about kicking healers for not dpsing. And I can understand and agree with him because he does it in endgame content. And in endgame, if you're not dpsing as a healer, you either don't know how to heal well or you're just lazy. And if you don't know your role well or you're lazy, I don't know why you're even trying to do endgame content in the first place.

well I am doing end game so whats your point? Plus I know the type of guy your talking about , and hes usually a carpet but thinks hes hardcore and Ive played with this type and had to keep sweeping him off the floor. Having a big mouth doesnt give you a big._.._in that case , think I can say he was carried through sephi ex several times

[Zojha]

This is assuming it's a delay if the healer dose 0 DPS.

The only base assumptions I used were the definitions of the words "Hindrance" and "Delay" and that Dealing Damage speeds up the run as per developer's design. The rest is simply universal logic, which you either ignore or fail to comprehend.

Again: If dealing damage, in general, without regard to your role, skin color or shoe size nor the dev expectations, speeds up the run and that is purposely designed in such a way by the devs, then not dealing damage therefore slows down the run as per design of the devs via inversion. As per definition of the word "Delay", slowing down the run creates a delay, as would all other things that slow down the run, such as wipes.

If you cannot comprehend that logical step, I'm afraid I cannot argue with you.

[Ghishlain]

The only base assumptions I used were the definitions of the words "Hindrance" and "Delay" and that Dealing Damage speeds up the run as per developer's design. The rest is simply universal logic, which you either ignore or fail to comprehend.

Again: If dealing damage, in general, without regard to your role, skin color or shoe size nor the dev expectations, speeds up the run and that is purposely designed in such a way by the devs, then not dealing damage therefore slows down the run as per design of the devs via inversion. As per definition of the word "Delay", slowing down the run creates a delay, as would all other things that slow down the run, such as wipes.

If you cannot comprehend that logical step, I'm afraid I cannot argue with you.

I comprehend exactly what you're saying and I respectfully disagree.

Let's go back to your definition:

hindrance - noun
A thing that provides resistance, delay, or obstruction to something or someone.

delay - verb
Make (someone or something) late or slow.

So, let's take a manufacturing line example. Someone wants to order 100 units of FFXIV to be manufactured. This normally takes the manufacturing line five days to complete. However, a technician found an efficiency in his work and got the line setup faster - therefore reducing the delivery time to four days. This is the opposite of a delay - you're now ahead of schedule.

So, a healer who does 0 DPS would be "normal expectations". A healer who adds DPS would now bring the clear time ahead of expected schedule.

Now, if it were the opposite. You could manufacturer 100 units in four days but an error from the technician cause the production to increase to five days. This is a delay.

In terms of FFXIV, a delay would occur if the healer's let someone / everyone die due to ineptitude. That would be a delay.

The one common thread and the absolute baseline anyone should be looking at when thinking about clear times is the developer's expectation. Anything AHEAD of that time frame is a bonus to the party dynamic. A 0-DPS healer therefore cannot delay a clear time unless they are so inept they caused a wipe.

Unless anyone can debunk this logic, there really isn't a leg anyone can stand about "delays" as any "delay" outside of the developer's intention is a selfish expectation of the duty finder requirements.

I will also say this about people arguing about the amount of effort a healer needs to complete their role versus a tank or DPS. It is unfair but it's the design of the game too. Until S-E starts forcing min ilvl requirements that will forcibly increase healer requirements or design fights to be random and spiky, healer's will always have less to do versus the DPS or Tanks because there is no such thing as "too much DPS". That's just the nature of the beast, unfortunately.

Does it make healer's who jump around and do nothing "the correct method of play"? Yes, unfortunately it does because for all technical aspects, they are correct.

Do you want people to stop doing this? Stop belittling the other healers and start encouraging them to play better.