Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

[Taika]

I'm highlighting the obstinate stubbornness showcased in a portion of the pro-healer-DPS crowd about their opinion = fact when it's not and thus entitles them to boot or be asininely rude and disrespectful to healers who choose only to heal.

I just can't comprehend how it's considered rude to ask someone to contribute in the party for more than 20% (or less) of the time - especially when the exact same principle is applied to all the jobs: I would ask the same from a tank or DD who'd afk for 80% of the time too. And I do always ask nicely and politely, saying, for example "Hey [healer], since the tank or anyone else isn't taking much damage here, could you please put some DoTs up / use Holy / Gravity?". Just like I'd ask for a BRD to sing Requiem if they're not otherwise doing it.

Then, if the answer is "no, I'm here to only heal", or even worse, "I'm here to /follow the tank and drink coffee while my fairy heals"...



How come it's not considered rude to flat out refuse to contribute as much as the rest of your team, but instead it is considered rude to ask party members to contribute evenly?

Of course I wouldn't support kicking a new healer who's learning their job and the instance and are busy enough with all that without any DPS. But those who're comfortable and familiar with their job and the instance and are simply refusing to be helpful when they could, after being asked to do so in a nice manner, I see no issue kicking.

[Ghishlain]

The very definition of hinder is to create difficulties for (someone or something), resulting in delay or obstruction.

I don't know how that can be any clearer for people. The issue I have personally with healers who "only" choose to heal, or ANY role who "only" chooses to do the minimum, is that they're being selfish/lazy and hindering my playing time. I don't have nearly as much time to game like most people do, so when I do I want to progress and get things done efficiently to keep the workflow going smoothly. As a boss you wouldn't hire an employee if you knew they were just doing enough to get by would you? No, you wouldnt. Same concept applies here, and that's where the problem derives from. Selfish and lazy players costing others. No one is expecting perfection or pro skills, just the courtesy to play the role they chose FULLY.

It's pretty clear to me that the base expectation pace of a dungeon clear doesn't not incorporate healer DPS. Therefore a healer not DPSing is not hindering the completion time of a dungeon.

Again, delay is a function of the expected metric for the clear time. Healer = 0 DPS is the expected metric for a clear time. Therefore a healer doing DPS = 0 is not delaying your run.

Now if you, as a player, have a higher expectation and metric, then you should probably be using things like PF to find a party of similar expectations. I will also add that a healer who's WANTS to do 0 DPS should also do the same thing, however. If you have specific expectations, you should be generating a party for those expectations - this will be true for either side of the argument.

As for the real life example, you only get to choose who you're hiring if you generate a PF for it. If you're leaving it to DF you're throwing all expectations to the wind and letting the developers decide who to give you - it's a crap shoot that only you can avoid.

hindrance - noun
A thing that provides resistance, delay, or obstruction to something or someone.

delay - verb
Make (someone or something) late or slow.

1. Damage as per developers design speeds up the run.
2. Not dealing damage as per developer's design slows down the run.
-> A. Thus, a person not dealing damage slows down the run.

3. Slowing down the run equals creating a delay as per definition of the word.
4. A thing that creates a delay is a hindrance as per definition of the word.
- Refer to A
-> B. Players who don't deal damage are a hindrance as per developer's design and the definition of those words.

QED.

This is assuming it's a delay if the healer dose 0 DPS. If dungeons are built around 0 DPS as a healer - there is no delay. The only time a healer will end up delaying the instance is you die and have to wait for weakness / run back to the point from a wipe.

If clear times are designed around 30-45 minute runs a min ilvl with 0 DPS contribution, that's the base line for the run. If a healer who doesn't DPS but you still clear the dungeon in 25 minutes, the 0 DPS healer hasn't delayed the run. Now if the healer who DPS brings the run time down to 20 minutes, than that is a BONUS to the run.

Where people have issue is the baseline of expectations compared to the devs.

If this were the case, you would have one DPS skill that received traits to increase damage alongside level increases. Or they'd buff the damage component of the "Maim & Mend" traits.

True! But they didn't choose to go this route. Any particular reason why? To me, both ways of doing the DPS increase would still result in a DPS increase that matches the power creep curve they have in mind so it doesn't change the core of my point.

I just can't comprehend how it's considered rude to ask someone to contribute in the party for more than 20% (or less) of the time - especially when the exact same principle is applied to all the jobs: I would ask the same from a tank or DD who'd afk for 80% of the time too. And I do always ask nicely and politely, saying, for example "Hey [healer], since the tank or anyone else isn't taking much damage here, could you please put some DoTs up / use Holy / Gravity?". Just like I'd ask for a BRD to sing Requiem if they're not otherwise doing it.

Then, if the answer is "no, I'm here to only heal", or even worse, "I'm here to /follow the tank and drink coffee while my fairy heals"...



How come it's not considered rude to flat out refuse to contribute as much as the rest of your team, but instead it is considered rude to ask party members to contribute evenly?

Of course I wouldn't support kicking a new healer who's learning their job and the instance and are busy enough with all that without any DPS. But those who're comfortable and familiar with their job and the instance and are simply refusing to be helpful when they could, after being asked to do so in a nice manner, I see no issue kicking.

And you should. Ask, be polite, be respectful. I'm not trying to single you out particularly but the amount of comments of "I'm going to boot you for not DPSing as a healer" is coming to a point where players are refusing to heal because they don't want to deal with that.

Isn't that telling about a larger, community driven, issue on hand?

And yes, it's also not correct for a healer who only heals to be rude and asinine as well. This aspect of the healer community is another wedge driving into the healer community because they obstinately also believe they have no reason to improve.

The entire point of my asking these question in these posts is to try to bring the healer community at least back at the table.

If you want to cultivate a better player base, the first thing we need to do is respectfully understand each other and then try to encourage people to play better. We all come from different facets of life, skill levels, and time constraints. We have to respect those avenues and understand not everyone can play like the other and try to encourage players to reach a higher level of skill with the time and skill levels they do have so we can at least start to re-cultivate a more respectful and higher skill level within the healer community.

Don't turn a blind eye to healer's who don't DPS, but don't be like "DPS OR BOOT" either, which is unfortunately the current perception of ANYONE who is a pro-DPS.

Let's get back to the table and talk about this like ladies and gentlemen, okay? Not belittle or disrespect our fellow player.

[HoodRat]

I've only ever seen one person talk about kicking healers for not dpsing. And I can understand and agree with him because he does it in endgame content. And in endgame, if you're not dpsing as a healer, you either don't know how to heal well or you're just lazy. And if you don't know your role well or you're lazy, I don't know why you're even trying to do endgame content in the first place.

[Feyona]

I've only ever seen one person talk about kicking healers for not dpsing. And I can understand and agree with him because he does it in endgame content. And in endgame, if you're not dpsing as a healer, you either don't know how to heal well or you're just lazy. And if you don't know your role well or you're lazy, I don't know why you're even trying to do endgame content in the first place.

well I am doing end game so whats your point? Plus I know the type of guy your talking about , and hes usually a carpet but thinks hes hardcore and Ive played with this type and had to keep sweeping him off the floor. Having a big mouth doesnt give you a big._.._in that case , think I can say he was carried through sephi ex several times

[Zojha]

This is assuming it's a delay if the healer dose 0 DPS.

The only base assumptions I used were the definitions of the words "Hindrance" and "Delay" and that Dealing Damage speeds up the run as per developer's design. The rest is simply universal logic, which you either ignore or fail to comprehend.

Again: If dealing damage, in general, without regard to your role, skin color or shoe size nor the dev expectations, speeds up the run and that is purposely designed in such a way by the devs, then not dealing damage therefore slows down the run as per design of the devs via inversion. As per definition of the word "Delay", slowing down the run creates a delay, as would all other things that slow down the run, such as wipes.

If you cannot comprehend that logical step, I'm afraid I cannot argue with you.

[Ghishlain]

The only base assumptions I used were the definitions of the words "Hindrance" and "Delay" and that Dealing Damage speeds up the run as per developer's design. The rest is simply universal logic, which you either ignore or fail to comprehend.

Again: If dealing damage, in general, without regard to your role, skin color or shoe size nor the dev expectations, speeds up the run and that is purposely designed in such a way by the devs, then not dealing damage therefore slows down the run as per design of the devs via inversion. As per definition of the word "Delay", slowing down the run creates a delay, as would all other things that slow down the run, such as wipes.

If you cannot comprehend that logical step, I'm afraid I cannot argue with you.

I comprehend exactly what you're saying and I respectfully disagree.

Let's go back to your definition:

hindrance - noun
A thing that provides resistance, delay, or obstruction to something or someone.

delay - verb
Make (someone or something) late or slow.

So, let's take a manufacturing line example. Someone wants to order 100 units of FFXIV to be manufactured. This normally takes the manufacturing line five days to complete. However, a technician found an efficiency in his work and got the line setup faster - therefore reducing the delivery time to four days. This is the opposite of a delay - you're now ahead of schedule.

So, a healer who does 0 DPS would be "normal expectations". A healer who adds DPS would now bring the clear time ahead of expected schedule.

Now, if it were the opposite. You could manufacturer 100 units in four days but an error from the technician cause the production to increase to five days. This is a delay.

In terms of FFXIV, a delay would occur if the healer's let someone / everyone die due to ineptitude. That would be a delay.

The one common thread and the absolute baseline anyone should be looking at when thinking about clear times is the developer's expectation. Anything AHEAD of that time frame is a bonus to the party dynamic. A 0-DPS healer therefore cannot delay a clear time unless they are so inept they caused a wipe.

Unless anyone can debunk this logic, there really isn't a leg anyone can stand about "delays" as any "delay" outside of the developer's intention is a selfish expectation of the duty finder requirements.

I will also say this about people arguing about the amount of effort a healer needs to complete their role versus a tank or DPS. It is unfair but it's the design of the game too. Until S-E starts forcing min ilvl requirements that will forcibly increase healer requirements or design fights to be random and spiky, healer's will always have less to do versus the DPS or Tanks because there is no such thing as "too much DPS". That's just the nature of the beast, unfortunately.

Does it make healer's who jump around and do nothing "the correct method of play"? Yes, unfortunately it does because for all technical aspects, they are correct.

Do you want people to stop doing this? Stop belittling the other healers and start encouraging them to play better.

[Zojha]

This is the opposite of a delay - you're now ahead of schedule.

You keep seeing things relative to expectations. But expectations are subjective. Showing up one hour "late" for work might be well within your expectations, therefore, by this reasoning, you would not be late or delay anything. At the same time, your employer might have the expectation that you're on time and thus, by this reasoning, you'd be late and delay the working process. This creates a logical contradiction, since you are now both at the same time, late and not late, delayed and not delayed. Thus, this reasoning fails, as it creates logical contradictions. Expectations are irrelevant, null and void. And since your entire argument hinges on them, so is it.

[Ghishlain]

Traiting existing spells would have been less effort and achieved the same goal, and since developers are human, the laziest option is usually what you'd go with (I kid ).

The new DPS skills were partially added to add new, flashy animations, but mainly to fill in niches that were missing in the classes' kits while performing their roles in duties. WHM's kit for example had almost all of the HP restoration tools you could ever ask for. They were mostly just missing a reliable emergency heal, which they got with Tetra. Asylum feels like they just wanted WHM to have a bubble too. I don't really think we needed any more AoE regen, and would have preferred it to mitigate damage, but hey I'm not going to turn my nose up at free healing. Assize was a spicy new piece of amazing hotness that fulfilled the same niche as SCH's new Indomitability skill (that is, instant burst AoE heal) that could be flip-flopped to be an AoE Nuke, depending on your stance at the time of cast.

What WHM was REALLY missing (beyond mitigation skills, but that's a different discussion...) was a native AoE DPS option that wasn't Holy (expensive, not always mana efficient to cast), and a way to apply a DoT without having to manually cast Aero 2/Aero on everything. Enter Aero 3. Aero 3 being an AoE is pretty meaningless in most of the solo content you have to do in the game. Heck, Aero 3's duration is longer than most enemies will live than if you just used one of your Stone spells.

The damage component on Assize falls into a similar trap, too - you are rarely ever fighting large groups of enemies when soloing as a healer. Assize gets a pass though because 1) it's free damage (or healing) either way; and 2) it's an absolutely awesome skill that they'd have to pry out of my cold, dead potato hands.

Then we have Broil/Stone 3, which are just direct upgrades to their respective single target nuke. Really the only DPS skill that would have been required outside of duties.

I like this discussion xD You could make the argument that spells like Aero III / Gravity / Stone III / Broil / Malefic II were there for the solo-style MSQ quests as mobs in there generally do last longer than the duration of most world mobs and are more akin to weaker dungeon monsters but that's more of an opinion and a fact. Overall I don't think we can say clearly what the dev's intent is given the evidence for either side of coin.

I do appreciate the thoughtful response though. It feels kinda rare at times. lol.

You keep seeing things relative to expectations. But expectations are subjective. Showing up one hour "late" for work might be well within your expectations, therefore, by this reasoning, you would not be late or delay anything. At the same time, your employer might have the expectation that you're on time and thus, by this reasoning, you'd be late and delay the working process. This creates a logical contradiction, since you are now both at the same time, late and not late, delayed and not delayed. Thus, this reasoning fails, as it creates logical contradictions. Expectations are irrelevant, null and void. And since your entire argument hinges on them, so is it.

There is no logical contradiction in my argument. In the case you listed above, the employer is in every right to write-up / punish the tardy employee. The employer's are the ones rendering payment for the salary and expecting a service returned for this payment. If the employee is late, that expectation is broken and they may be punished for their mistake.

In the case of FFXIV, I would say that the developer's are the employers and they set the guidelines for expectations within the duty. They have set the baseline of their expectation of roles and in this case they have made it abundantly clear they do not expect healer's to contribute to the DPS to their content.

Using your example and logic, the employee who is late would equate to the healer who let their party die. Whereas the healer who DPS would equate to the employee who arrived an hour early to work to get some extra time in and left at the same time.

Getting a healer to DPS, for all intents and purposes, is a community driven initiative. It's something every healer looking to become better should do. However, it's not what the developers want.

The developers have stated on several occasions that they understand healer's do enjoy DPSing in content and have made neither comment about their opposition or agreement to this issue. To me they are happy with allowing the healers to choose what they would like to do. Who are we, as high tier healers, get to decide what is "acceptable" and "unacceptable" from other players when they are basically fulfilling their primary function as a healer within a dungeon?