PLD, WAR, & DRK balancing ideas

[Chronons]

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You have still neglected to interact with my original counterpoint, which I find telling. I did not at any point say PLD is the “entry level tank” I said it is the most mechanically simple to play – that is a true statement. NO, you do not get to reframe the discussion to suit your narrative. I never said I had an issue with PLD being relevant in a competitive meta via balancing, I said I have an issue arbitrarily raising its DPS to be comparable to other tanks. If you were arguing that PLD should be tankier so that it makes more sense to bring it over another tank, I wouldn’t argue with you. However that is not the discussion at hand. Also, I am not claiming that the game should brush of balance by saying play another job. Im saying if you want to be the very best of the competitive spectrum you will need to evaluate what job you are playing. Those are two entirely different things.

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I would cite the numerous reddit pages of parsing data, or the numbers related to SSS dummies as empirical evidence for my claim. My rebuttal to your statement would be, please provide me with a competitive game that does not have a meta.

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Which is why I suggested that arbitrarily increasing PLDs DPS would simply reverse the meta. By your definition that would also be bad. Although I think you are going to be hard pressed to find any meta that doesnt favor one or more things over others - that is kind of what is implied by a meta.

So you are suggesting that team comp should have zero impact on gameplay? We should have teams of 8 bards doing world first clears? This is a either a gross misrepresentation or misunderstanding of game design as a whole and beyond the need to address with reason.

[Reynhart]

You have still neglected to interact with my original counterpoint, which I find telling.

Your original counterpoint...you mean this :

Jobs that are harder to play should do more DPS than jobs that are easier to play.

Which I answered with this :

No, they shouldn't. If you do this, you basically have jobs for low-level, and jobs for high level. All jobs are supposed to be equally wanted in a party.

and this :

Every job (in the same role) should be able to do contribute the same DPS wise (personal of by party utility) at the same mastery.

And then I explained that if you're able to level one job without any other (save cross-class), then this job should be equally competitive in endgame, because "Go play another job" is not an acceptable balance fix ?

I did not at any point say PLD is the “entry level tank” I said it is the most mechanically simple to play – that is a true statement.

Yes, it is designed to be mechanically simpler. Why ? Because Yoshi-P wanted it to be the "entry-level" tank. I didn't reframe the discussion, the link is right in front of you...

I never said I had an issue with PLD being relevant in a competitive meta via balancing, I said I have an issue arbitrarily raising its DPS to be comparable to other tanks.

But, according to the meta, not bringing a DPS increase to the party is not being competitive in the meta.

If you were arguing that PLD should be tankier so that it makes more sense to bring it over another tank, I wouldn’t argue with you.

Everybody knows it wouldn't do anything for PLD to be tankier. People do not want tankier tanks, they want moar DPS.

I'm saying if you want to be the very best of the competitive spectrum you will need to evaluate what job you are playing.

You shouldn't. If you want to be the very best, you should master the job you chose. Again, balance is not "Go play another job"

My rebuttal to your statement would be, please provide me with a competitive game that does not have a meta.

What ? What does this have anything to do with the discussion ?

Which is why I suggested that arbitrarily increasing PLDs DPS would simply reverse the meta.

There's a difference between increasing PLD's personal DPS, and tweaking it so that it can increase the party overall DPS. And no, it shouldn't reverse the meta, you just have to build several options for different. Last time I checked, tanks and healers are the only roles where there is a clear favor on one job.

So you are suggesting that team comp should have zero impact on gameplay? We should have teams of 8 bards doing world first clears?

So, according to you, having three tanks equally competitive is the same as allowing 8 DPS party for top content ?

In case I haven't said it enough time, the most blatant flaw in the game design is fixing all balance issue by "Go play another job".

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

My rebuttal to your statement would be, please provide me with a competitive game that does not have a meta.

Every competitive game has a meta. So what's your point? lol.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Which is why I suggested that arbitrarily increasing PLDs DPS would simply reverse the meta. By your definition that would also be bad. Although I think you are going to be hard pressed to find any meta that doesnt favor one or more things over others - that is kind of what is implied by a meta.

Wrong. "Metagame" (which the term "Meta" is an abbreviation of) does not imply imbalance. All there is to a Metagame is the use of out-of-game info to influence in-game choices. In a balanced/nearly-balanced metagame many out-of-game choices (such as which 2 of the current 3 tanks you bring to Full Party content) should have very little to no effect on players ability to successfully complete content. SE should seek to make the game such.

So you are suggesting that team comp should have zero impact on gameplay? We should have teams of 8 bards doing world first clears? This is a either a gross misrepresentation or misunderstanding of game design as a whole and beyond the need to address with reason.

Did you even read my post?

Team comp outside of 2 different tanks/2 different healers/2 different melee dps/2 different ranged dps should not matter in a world first race.

This should mean a raid static would contain:

• Tank 1: War, Drk or Pld
• Tank 2: War, Drk or Pld but not sharing a job with Tank 1
• Healer 1: Ast, Sch, or Whm
• Healer 2: Ast, Sch, or Whm but not sharing a job with Healer 1
• Melee Dps 1: Drg, Mnk, Nin or Sam(?)
• Melee Dps 2: Drg, Mnk, Nin or Sam(?) but not sharing a job with Melee DpS 1
• Ranged DpS 1: Blm, Brd, Mch, Rdm, or Smn
• Ranged DpS 2: Blm, Brd, Mch, Rdm, or Smn not sharing a job with Ranged DpS 1

As long as those comp "rules" are followed pretty much any comp should be able to complete all highend Full Party content only limited by player skill development rates.

[Sarcatica]

As long as those comp "rules" are followed pretty much any comp should be able to complete all highend Full Party content only limited by player skill development rates.

Except that every job is able to still clear the hardest content, a4s was the only exception due to the huge amount of magic damage and mostly this type of balance influences more heavily on the week 1 world progression (speedrun for now) but not necessarily when the fights have been done weeks and months after and people still think WAR is a must and PLD is not viable. People are just being sheeps if they feel that PLD can't clear any content or the job makes it WAY harder to clear which is not true at all. People complain and overreating over balance issue when they aren't even raiding is like beating a dead horse. How do you know if there is a problem if you haven't tried it out yet? It's all speculation until proven.

I bet that some people now still think that PLD makes it harder to clear a12s which again is not true at all.

[Chronons]

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I dont think you quite understand.... The only thing you addressed is the premise, not the supplementary argument. I offered an argument, if you want to say its incorrect I welcome your critique of its conclusion or the leading logic. Thus far you have just repeated your own premise, introduced non relevant points, and attempted to reframe the discussion - although I am suspect to if you fully know what that means. Ive asked you to twice and repeated the actual counter argument to your position twice now. Probability dictates that it will go unanswered and you will continue to resort to your opinion as a point of argument. I will just leave it with "balance" is not necessarily "all things are equal", in fact it most often is "all things are given their due".

Every competitive game has a meta. So what's your point? lol.

I really think it SHOULDN'T stay that way because all it does is force competitive players into a meta

This........ This is my point..... I hope the irony isnt lost on anyone...

As long as those comp "rules" are followed pretty much any comp should be able to complete all highend Full Party content only limited by player skill development rates.

Upon rereading and evaluating I agree with you, I apologize for mischaracterizing what you were saying with this.

Wrong. "Metagame" (which the term "Meta" is an abbreviation of) does not imply imbalance.

I do disagree with this though. A Meta implies there are some picks that are superior to others. There isn't a Meta if all choices are equal, people can just use whatever (no outside info influencing inside choices). The fact that you had to use the term "nearly balanced" suggests how difficult it is to point to a truly "balanced" Meta. I do want to clarify though, that in regards to clearing content I agree with you - a Meta should not dictate what players use. I dont see that as being much of an issue for causal/midcore play as it stands. However the whole discussion is about the competitive side of FFXIV. There, I think, it is perfectly reasonable for a Meta to exist.

[Reynhart]

Thus far you have just repeated your own premise, introduced non relevant points, and attempted to reframe the discussion - although I am suspect to if you fully know what that means.

Well, it's not my fault if you don't read properly...but let's try to rephrase it a little. There shouldn't be "mechanically easier but weaker jobs, only easier content".

This........ This is my point..... I hope the irony isnt lost on anyone...

What ? This is the exact opposite of your point. Your point is that this situation is perfectly logical as it is, and we should deal with it by changing jobs.

A Meta implies there are some picks that are superior to others.

Actually, no, that's not what it means. Metagame is the ensemble of strategies ar actions you would build outside of the game itself to counter other strats or action. The main problem is that metagame has risen in versus games. You know your opponent is doing such strat and you build your own strat to counter that. You have metagame in chess, RTS, Fighting Games and even Rock-paper-scissors...Problem is, in FFXIV, you don't have the versus part. The computer is always using the same actions regardless of what you do, what job you use, etc...And even if you stretch that a bit claiming that different content use different strat, tanks competitivy is the same in just every content, for the simple fact that "any tank should be survive anything" reducing tank's focus on "who does the most damage ?".

You want an example of real metagaming in FFXIV ? Let's suggest a boss that switch between magical attacks and physical attacks at set interval. Once under 50%, it locks itself into a single attack type. What could be considered metagame is "In what state do we want to lock him for the last 50% ?". If it's magical then a DRK MT is better, if it's physical, then a PLD MT is better...but you'd still end with a bring a WAR OT is both situations...

[Lambdafish]

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You are right that a more difficult to play job should have more advantages to it, that is how pros and cons are weighed, but this does not fix any of the issues. The solution then is to make PLD more challenging to play, to give it more to do, and some actual identity to its gameplay. Then it can be equal to WAR in its advantages, wouldn't you agree?

[Sarcatica]

You are right that a more difficult to play job should have more advantages to it, that is how pros and cons are weighed, but this does not fix any of the issues. The solution then is to make PLD more challenging to play, to give it more to do, and some actual identity to its gameplay. Then it can be equal to WAR in its advantages, wouldn't you agree?

I think I have mentioned this before and I do agree that PLD needs to be harder and more rewarding to play. GB RA RA is a staple for PLD and just a little bit of twists depending on extreme cases, WAR/DRK has to decide if they need Delirium/Path or WAR needing to prep Eye for next phase or adds etc. There are more decision making for DRK and WAR, not so much for PLD.

[Lambdafish]

I think I have mentioned this before and I do agree that PLD needs to be harder and more rewarding to play. GB RA RA is a staple for PLD and just a little bit of twists depending on extreme cases, WAR/DRK has to decide if they need Delirium/Path or WAR needing to prep Eye for next phase or adds etc. There are more decision making for DRK and WAR, not so much for PLD.

Its even more than that, WAR has a different skillset depending on stance and needs to manage wrath stacks to gain access to powerful abilities, and DRK has to decide whether to have darkside up or down, and gains new skills based on that, and has the whole MP micromanagement side of dark arts that add depth to the job. PLD goes into sword oath and.... does more damage, takes more damage, and generates less enmity, that is it.