Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[DPZ2]

I really don't get what you're trying to imply here.

It's a reiteration of your main theme: "it's about all party members making an equal effort towards the party's goal and setting the bar at same level for everyone". I agree with it. And agreeing with it has implications that many folks never consider.

Healers aren't the only team members. If the "community" requires them to have multiple responsibilities, they need to require the same from the other team members. Complaints I've seen appear to absolve DPS and Tank from any responsibility outside their given role.

[Aramina]

This appears to imply that it is the responsibility of DPS and Tank to heal themselves at times, and not blame the healer if they die from something they could have easily avoided.

It appears to imply that DPS should never take enmity from the Tank, and actually tone down their DPS if they are doing so.

It appears to imply that Tanks should be watching the Healer constantly and grabbing adds in a timely fashion, regardless of whether it's a DPS drop for them.

That about right?

No, it implies DPS should be active as close to 100% of the time as possible.
No, it implies tanks should be active as close to 100% of the time as possible.
No, it implies that healers should be active as close to 100% of the time as possible.


If you needed to heal as close to 100% of the time as possible to complete a dungeon then this topic would be moot. You don't need to, *that* is why it is an assumption that healers will do *something* to take up the activity time that is not being used to heal. I really do not know how to make it any more plain than that.

edit: And to add, if there was a fight where there was nothing to tank or dps for a period of time but there was still damage somehow then yes, I would expect non-healers to pitch in as would be beneficial.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Can't wait to see what all of you "you better be dpsing if there's nothing to heal" people have to say when the combat changes come in 4.0 and healers either can't dps at all, or their dps viability gets so nerffed it's not even worth it to switch stances.

Just guessing, of course, but I can see SE putting an end to this argument. I have a feeling there's gonna be a whole lot of dpsers out there that are gonna be upset at having to step up their game rather than blame healers for low party dps.

If they actually forced healers to only heal without scaling the damage to properly accommodate such a change, you'll see the queues become near unbearable. Why bother queuing for dungeons when you'll spend 50-80% standing around spamming emotes? I can speak only for myself, but I scarcely bother with Expert Roulette nowadays already since capping tomes is easy. A change like this would mean I never even look at dungeons.

What I do expect to happen in Stormblood is Cleric Stance being removed and healer damage being calculated through Mind not unlike how they changed tank damage to scale through both VIT and STR.

If a player chose to start as a (CNJ)WHM, that WHM needs to be capable of actually killing things in MSQ quests, Leves and side quests.
Could you imagine trying to get from 1 - 60 via questing as a (CNJ)WHM with your ONLY damage spell being Stone I?
SE clearly thought that'd suck, so they made sure to give the Job adequate damage dealing spells that were flavorful to the Job without being the focus of the Job.

That explains the various Stone tiers, however if SE didn't anticipate healer damage. Why give them arguably the most potent aoes in the entire game? Holy and Gravity will generally out-DPS Dragoons and Ninjas-- two dedicated DPS jobs-- while Aero III (and its equivalents) only adds to the sheer immense potency a healer can deal. None of these abilities are even remotely required for any MSQ content.

[JunseiKei]

Honestly, if you have the skills, yes.

Good tanks that I have seen will use Second Wind, Equilibrium and Clemency to allow their healers more time to get their DoTs out before they are required to come out of healing stance. DPS that take unnecessary damage and have Second Wind or Bloodbath should use their skills and help contribute to sustaining themselves. Even on room-wide damage, using such skills to contribute to healers having more DPS up-time and overall damage increase. Healers not switching off who DoTs, heals and DPSs at a time, also leading to less overall DPS increase.

DPS have skills like Quelling Strikes and Shadewalker should use them as most good openers are likely to pull if you start casting right when the tank pulls (which I've seen many people do, even if the tank starts the pull at 3 instead of 1). I've equally seen people start casting too early, like a bard in Midas, thinking Empyreal Arrow was a 3 second cast and pulled at 3. I've seen so many people vehemently argue against ever using Quelling Strikes, saying it lowers their DPS.

It appears to imply that Tanks should be watching the Healer constantly and grabbing adds in a timely fashion, regardless of whether it's a DPS drop for them.

Ah, that sentence. The tank's role is to tank, not the healer. I have seen all too many tanks, healers and DPS ignore their roles for the sake of "the parse." A mob needs to die ASAP; hold on, lemme DoT all the other mobs and return to that one that needs to die. Oh, lemme not get the last hit because overkill isn't counted on FFLogs and is cropped off and will lower my parse. Tanks not stance dancing and once enmity is established, goes into DPS stance and will tank everything in that stance, including losing out on valuable skills that would otherwise contribute to higher overall DPS increases.

However, "my parse!" is more important.

This does not make anyone a good player. The things I listed above. They make players greedy for- what? A sense of superiority? I honestly don't know. FFLogs was meant to be able to look at where teams had issues and what could be done to optimize runs and roles as a whole. A place where you could see people who did better than you and check out their particularities; like their opener, when they next used buffs, what other buffs were stacked, etc. A tool for self, and team, improvement. Not a leader-board for boasting or bragging.

A good tank will switch back into tank stance and mitigate, making it easier for the healer to heal (and also return to cleric stance sooner) and then stance dance back into their DPS stance. Things like warriors will actually pop Defiance, mitigate and use skills like Second Wind or Equilibrium, then swap back into Deliverance. Taking the tank buster in Deliverance and living doesn't make you good- it just means you were baby sat. Yes, I'm well aware a Warrior takes the same amount of damage in Defiance as they do in Deliverance; this isn't about that. It's about working as a team, and many players have a blatant disregard for it in a social and team-based game.

As for healers, I've also seen so many other healers, mostly scholars, that will only DPS and leave everything to the co-healer and the fairy. They don't bother to mitigate, even throw down so much as a Sacred Soil when large amounts of room-wide damage are going out. The exception being things like a primal using their limit break and then just applying adloquium and deployment tactics. That's cool and all and if the other healer notices, and more importantly, can handle it, then why not remove the co-healer and take an actual DPS? Again, just because you can do something doesn't make you a good player; it makes you a greedy player that is, often times, babysat.

However, I know a majority will disagree with this statement.

~snip~

You're assuming dungeons will be just as unfulfilling as they are now. I'm hoping the last fight with The Griffen in Baelsar's Wall is anything to go by, that we will see an increase in mobs doing enmity ignoring attacks on all party members with just enough going on that cleric stancing could spell death. I'd personally welcome such a change; I'd love dungeons that are "easy," but more action packed to the point that even if I'm "just healing," I have too much going on to afford me to DPS for any length of time.

Not required in MSQ at this point, no but there have been points in time where job quests did need it. We're also not taking into account open world, where a person would potentially be solo questing. You're only looking at instances and MSQ.

[Leanna]

Well, I guess from now on I can kick any healer who heals but doesn't deal any dps, and everyone else if I don't like their gear or how they play, that's pretty nice. No need to feel bad anymore for kicking the DD's if I deal more dps than them as healer.

[Greedalox]

Well, I guess from now on I can kick any healer who heals but doesn't deal any dps, and everyone else if I don't like their gear or how they play, that's pretty nice. No need to feel bad anymore for kicking the DD's if I deal more dps than them as healer.

Effectively yes. You still must get a majority vote though so you alone aren't really the say all be all for kicking.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You're assuming dungeons will be just as unfulfilling as they are now. I'm hoping the last fight with The Griffen in Baelsar's Wall is anything to go by, that we will see an increase in mobs doing enmity ignoring attacks on all party members with just enough going on that cleric stancing could spell death. I'd personally welcome such a change; I'd love dungeons that are "easy," but more action packed to the point that even if I'm "just healing," I have too much going on to afford me to DPS for any length of time.

Not required in MSQ at this point, no but there have been points in time where job quests did need it. We're also not taking into account open world, where a person would potentially be solo questing. You're only looking at instances and MSQ.

Hence my mention of scaling. Although Baelsar's Wall does a better job than most HW dungeons, you still have significant downtime where the inability to DPS would mean healers have literally nothing to do. Honestly, higher level floors of PotD are a perfect template for dungeons. Tanks actually need to be mindful of pulls and cooldown usage and Healers equally have much shorter windows to DPS due to the damage. In that sense, I agree with you. I'd prefer more healer checks regardless of how they're designed since whenever I do play healer, I would rather heal (I main DPS jobs. I get enough of it ) Unfortunately, the current design of content just does not support that mindset.

No, there isn't. You will never need abilities as potent as Holy or Aero III in any solo-able content. The vast majority of quests pair you with NPCs who keep you nearly topped off should there be larger mob packs and open world mobs barely do anything unless you pull a bunch of them.

[Leanna]

Effectively yes. You still must get a majority vote though so you alone aren't really the say all be all for kicking.

Go in duo helps to kick anyone you want.

[JunseiKei]

No, there isn't. You will never need abilities as potent as Holy or Aero III in any solo-able content. The vast majority of quests pair you with NPCs who keep you nearly topped off should there be larger mob packs and open world mobs barely do anything unless you pull a bunch of them.

No? Hmm, we must be remembering things differently. Things like fighting in the mock PvP MSQ where such AoE skills were quite nice to have at your disposal. Just one instance I can recall off the top of my head. Maybe not needed, but certainly more efficient. However, that had been my point. Open world where multiple monsters could jump on you if you aren't paying attention to your surroundings. You can run, yes, but if you need to kill them, having AoE skills at your disposal is better than none.

[Voltyblast]

If a healer decides to DPS in their downtime, while keeping the group alive, a legitimate reason to vote kick someone? Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

The answer is no but unfortunately, it's the total opposite: if you DON'T DPS during downtime that's a reason enough to be kicked. So you either learn to DPS between heals or don't pick the healing job (in every possible meaning).

I picked the third choice and went tank! Toodles!