Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[DPZ2]

It's not about people "not going above and beyond what their role is", it's about all party members making an equal effort towards the party's goal and setting the bar at same level for everyone.

This appears to imply that it is the responsibility of DPS and Tank to heal themselves at times, and not blame the healer if they die from something they could have easily avoided.

It appears to imply that DPS should never take enmity from the Tank, and actually tone down their DPS if they are doing so.

It appears to imply that Tanks should be watching the Healer constantly and grabbing adds in a timely fashion, regardless of whether it's a DPS drop for them.

That about right?

[Taika]

This appears to imply that it is the responsibility of DPS and Tank to heal themselves at times, and not blame the healer if they die from something they could have easily avoided.

It appears to imply that DPS should never take enmity from the Tank, and actually tone down their DPS if they are doing so.

It appears to imply that Tanks should be watching the Healer constantly and grabbing adds in a timely fashion, regardless of whether it's a DPS drop for them.

That about right?

I honestly don't get where you're going with this. It doesn't imply that a person should never make a mistake (like DPS should never take enmity from tank - of course they should aim to avoid it but mistakes happen), but yes, it does imply that not only healers but also tanks and DDs should do their best to actively participate in the fights. If a DD takes damage and has a Second Wind available, of course they should use it, and of course tanks should be pulling adds when they appear. I really don't get what you're trying to imply here.

It's a reiteration of your main theme: "it's about all party members making an equal effort towards the party's goal and setting the bar at same level for everyone". I agree with it. And agreeing with it has implications that many folks never consider.

Healers aren't the only team members. If the "community" requires them to have multiple responsibilities, they need to require the same from the other team members. Complaints I've seen appear to absolve DPS and Tank from any responsibility outside their given role.

Ah I see now, thanks for explaining! Yes, of course I agree that all party members should use all their useful abilities to support the party. I just feel like this is most often taken for granted for DDs and tanks, but for healers some people are actually arguing that they shouldn't have to do anything but that one thing. I'd dislike a BRD who doesn't sing, a DD who refuses to use Second Wind or Quelling Strikes, or an off tank who does absolutely nothing while there aren't any adds up just as I dislike a healer who refuses to do anything but heal.

[DPZ2]

I really don't get what you're trying to imply here.

It's a reiteration of your main theme: "it's about all party members making an equal effort towards the party's goal and setting the bar at same level for everyone". I agree with it. And agreeing with it has implications that many folks never consider.

Healers aren't the only team members. If the "community" requires them to have multiple responsibilities, they need to require the same from the other team members. Complaints I've seen appear to absolve DPS and Tank from any responsibility outside their given role.

[Aramina]

This appears to imply that it is the responsibility of DPS and Tank to heal themselves at times, and not blame the healer if they die from something they could have easily avoided.

It appears to imply that DPS should never take enmity from the Tank, and actually tone down their DPS if they are doing so.

It appears to imply that Tanks should be watching the Healer constantly and grabbing adds in a timely fashion, regardless of whether it's a DPS drop for them.

That about right?

No, it implies DPS should be active as close to 100% of the time as possible.
No, it implies tanks should be active as close to 100% of the time as possible.
No, it implies that healers should be active as close to 100% of the time as possible.


If you needed to heal as close to 100% of the time as possible to complete a dungeon then this topic would be moot. You don't need to, *that* is why it is an assumption that healers will do *something* to take up the activity time that is not being used to heal. I really do not know how to make it any more plain than that.

edit: And to add, if there was a fight where there was nothing to tank or dps for a period of time but there was still damage somehow then yes, I would expect non-healers to pitch in as would be beneficial.

[JunseiKei]

Honestly, if you have the skills, yes.

Good tanks that I have seen will use Second Wind, Equilibrium and Clemency to allow their healers more time to get their DoTs out before they are required to come out of healing stance. DPS that take unnecessary damage and have Second Wind or Bloodbath should use their skills and help contribute to sustaining themselves. Even on room-wide damage, using such skills to contribute to healers having more DPS up-time and overall damage increase. Healers not switching off who DoTs, heals and DPSs at a time, also leading to less overall DPS increase.

DPS have skills like Quelling Strikes and Shadewalker should use them as most good openers are likely to pull if you start casting right when the tank pulls (which I've seen many people do, even if the tank starts the pull at 3 instead of 1). I've equally seen people start casting too early, like a bard in Midas, thinking Empyreal Arrow was a 3 second cast and pulled at 3. I've seen so many people vehemently argue against ever using Quelling Strikes, saying it lowers their DPS.

It appears to imply that Tanks should be watching the Healer constantly and grabbing adds in a timely fashion, regardless of whether it's a DPS drop for them.

Ah, that sentence. The tank's role is to tank, not the healer. I have seen all too many tanks, healers and DPS ignore their roles for the sake of "the parse." A mob needs to die ASAP; hold on, lemme DoT all the other mobs and return to that one that needs to die. Oh, lemme not get the last hit because overkill isn't counted on FFLogs and is cropped off and will lower my parse. Tanks not stance dancing and once enmity is established, goes into DPS stance and will tank everything in that stance, including losing out on valuable skills that would otherwise contribute to higher overall DPS increases.

However, "my parse!" is more important.

This does not make anyone a good player. The things I listed above. They make players greedy for- what? A sense of superiority? I honestly don't know. FFLogs was meant to be able to look at where teams had issues and what could be done to optimize runs and roles as a whole. A place where you could see people who did better than you and check out their particularities; like their opener, when they next used buffs, what other buffs were stacked, etc. A tool for self, and team, improvement. Not a leader-board for boasting or bragging.

A good tank will switch back into tank stance and mitigate, making it easier for the healer to heal (and also return to cleric stance sooner) and then stance dance back into their DPS stance. Things like warriors will actually pop Defiance, mitigate and use skills like Second Wind or Equilibrium, then swap back into Deliverance. Taking the tank buster in Deliverance and living doesn't make you good- it just means you were baby sat. Yes, I'm well aware a Warrior takes the same amount of damage in Defiance as they do in Deliverance; this isn't about that. It's about working as a team, and many players have a blatant disregard for it in a social and team-based game.

As for healers, I've also seen so many other healers, mostly scholars, that will only DPS and leave everything to the co-healer and the fairy. They don't bother to mitigate, even throw down so much as a Sacred Soil when large amounts of room-wide damage are going out. The exception being things like a primal using their limit break and then just applying adloquium and deployment tactics. That's cool and all and if the other healer notices, and more importantly, can handle it, then why not remove the co-healer and take an actual DPS? Again, just because you can do something doesn't make you a good player; it makes you a greedy player that is, often times, babysat.

However, I know a majority will disagree with this statement.

~snip~

You're assuming dungeons will be just as unfulfilling as they are now. I'm hoping the last fight with The Griffen in Baelsar's Wall is anything to go by, that we will see an increase in mobs doing enmity ignoring attacks on all party members with just enough going on that cleric stancing could spell death. I'd personally welcome such a change; I'd love dungeons that are "easy," but more action packed to the point that even if I'm "just healing," I have too much going on to afford me to DPS for any length of time.

Not required in MSQ at this point, no but there have been points in time where job quests did need it. We're also not taking into account open world, where a person would potentially be solo questing. You're only looking at instances and MSQ.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You're assuming dungeons will be just as unfulfilling as they are now. I'm hoping the last fight with The Griffen in Baelsar's Wall is anything to go by, that we will see an increase in mobs doing enmity ignoring attacks on all party members with just enough going on that cleric stancing could spell death. I'd personally welcome such a change; I'd love dungeons that are "easy," but more action packed to the point that even if I'm "just healing," I have too much going on to afford me to DPS for any length of time.

Not required in MSQ at this point, no but there have been points in time where job quests did need it. We're also not taking into account open world, where a person would potentially be solo questing. You're only looking at instances and MSQ.

Hence my mention of scaling. Although Baelsar's Wall does a better job than most HW dungeons, you still have significant downtime where the inability to DPS would mean healers have literally nothing to do. Honestly, higher level floors of PotD are a perfect template for dungeons. Tanks actually need to be mindful of pulls and cooldown usage and Healers equally have much shorter windows to DPS due to the damage. In that sense, I agree with you. I'd prefer more healer checks regardless of how they're designed since whenever I do play healer, I would rather heal (I main DPS jobs. I get enough of it ) Unfortunately, the current design of content just does not support that mindset.

No, there isn't. You will never need abilities as potent as Holy or Aero III in any solo-able content. The vast majority of quests pair you with NPCs who keep you nearly topped off should there be larger mob packs and open world mobs barely do anything unless you pull a bunch of them.

[JunseiKei]

No, there isn't. You will never need abilities as potent as Holy or Aero III in any solo-able content. The vast majority of quests pair you with NPCs who keep you nearly topped off should there be larger mob packs and open world mobs barely do anything unless you pull a bunch of them.

No? Hmm, we must be remembering things differently. Things like fighting in the mock PvP MSQ where such AoE skills were quite nice to have at your disposal. Just one instance I can recall off the top of my head. Maybe not needed, but certainly more efficient. However, that had been my point. Open world where multiple monsters could jump on you if you aren't paying attention to your surroundings. You can run, yes, but if you need to kill them, having AoE skills at your disposal is better than none.

[Lanze]

I see these types of healers all the time when tanking, I sometimes ask them if they can dps, if they don't i usually stand in more aoes and not use cooldowns to make them work a bit

[Bourne_Endeavor]

No? Hmm, we must be remembering things differently. Things like fighting in the mock PvP MSQ where such AoE skills were quite nice to have at your disposal. Just one instance I can recall off the top of my head. Maybe not needed, but certainly more efficient. However, that had been my point. Open world where multiple monsters could jump on you if you aren't paying attention to your surroundings. You can run, yes, but if you need to kill them, having AoE skills at your disposal is better than none.

Yes, however their potency wouldn't need to be nearly as high in that scenario, which has been my point. It requires 6+ mobs before a Dragoon can deal more direct potency compared to a White Mage assuming the latter only spams Holy. If SE didn't intend for healers to DPS even just sparingly, then this is simply a design flaw. The current healer DPS meta exists because healers deal such significant damage and nothing hurts hard enough to warrant consistent healing. They had to know this would happen.

And open world mobs deal so little damage on average. Even if they did pile on you, Stone III would be more than adequate. Again, it isn't efficiency we're talking about but whether SE gave healers the abilities they have purely for solo-able content or to actually contribute damage whenever possible. In that specific MSQ event, I mostly did single target combos. It didn't take much longer nor would it had I been on White Mage spamming Stone III.

A simple solution would be actually make content hit hard enough or have healer checks that severely restricts how much downtime you have to DPS. Until they do, the meta will not change.

[Risvertasashi]

They had to know this would happen.

The hilarious thing is that they didn't. Look at dev comments or sometimes even patch notes. Round 1 holy nerfs? "Healers should not feel pressured to DPS". Hall of novice? "You MAY wish to DPS if you have time." Or other tidbits like "We know SOME groups' playstyle is to have healers DPS."

However, most people favor maximum contribution and so reach the logical conclusion: Healers are capable of significant DPS output and often have enough downtime to safely DPS. Thus, to maximize contribution, healers should DPS.

In the end it doesn't matter though. You can basically kick someone for a party for any reason except to grief them, so you can kick a healer that does/doesn't DPS.