Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[DinahDemiurge]

AutoWhit, how about you tell us what is good about standing and donig nothing. Please. How does this help the party?

[Sylve]

AutoWhit, how about you tell us what is good about standing and donig nothing. Please. How does this help the party?

It doesn't. By the same token, It doesn't hurt the party either.

Assuming all 4 members of the party are achieving their primary role, a duty will succeed. The speed at which this happens depends on how well the party does with secondary roles (except DDs, poor bastards only get to kill things).

Its a skill floor and a skill ceiling kind of system.
If a Healer is only capable of healing the party, They're standing on the skill floor.
If that Healer can keep the party alive while maintaining a steady output of damage, they're reaching for the skill ceiling.

Standard duties are designed with the consideration that 4 players standing on the skill floor can clear it. However, 4 players reaching for the skill ceiling in that same duty will be able to clear it much more effectively/efficiently.

All I'm trying to point out is that there is nothing inherently wrong with a Healer who doesn't throw down DPS during downtimes. Just as their isn't anything wrong with a Tank who isn't dancing in and out of tank stance to maximize their damage output balanced against their enmity generation and damage taken.
They're not going to be the best players, but as long as they're not failing your duty, why does it matter that it took you 5 extra minutes to clear? If you want speedruns, make your own parties and set your own rules.

[Zojha]

Assuming all 4 members of the party are achieving their primary role, a duty will succeed.

I don't think that successful duty completion is a very good standard. Consider, there are 90 minutes on the clock. If successful duty completion was the only criterion that mattered, it would be perfectly okay for DPS to deal so little damage that it takes 85 minutes to complete the dungeon. They do their primary job (dealing damage), even if not very well, and the duty does not fail, so according to that criterion, it would be acceptable.

I think it is obvious or should be obvious that this is of course not acceptable and consequently think that this is not a suitable standard to measure by. A suitable standard should not lead to undesirable results if applied to other roles.

[Sylve]

I don't think that successful duty completion is a very good standard. Consider, there are 90 minutes on the clock. If successful duty completion was the only criterion that mattered, it would be perfectly okay for DPS to deal so little damage that it takes 85 minutes to complete the dungeon. They do their primary job (dealing damage), even if not very well, and the duty does not fail, so according to that criterion, it would be acceptable.

I think it is obvious or should be obvious that this is of course not acceptable and consequently think that this is not a suitable standard to measure by. A suitable standard should not lead to undesirable results if applied to other roles.

If it wasn't acceptable to take 85+ minutes to clear a dungeon, SE would set the bar lower.
Once again, if you cleared it, even if it took you to the very last second to do it, makes you minimally good. Or perhaps 'viable' would be a better word? Your party produced enough damage and Healing to kill all the things within the allotted time. Congrats. You've achieved the minimum possible standard to finish the duty.

Its only unacceptable to a community who demands a dungeon to be finished in the fastest possible time, even if that means vote kicking players that are doing their jobs but not at a level deemed "good" by the random overgeared tool who just wants his tomes as fast as possible. Nevermind the circumstances of the poor bastard who suddenly finds himself without a party and bereft of an explanation as to why.

[Crysten]

If it wasn't acceptable to take 85+ minutes to clear a dungeon, SE would set the bar lower. Once again, if you cleared it, even if it took you to the very last second to do it, makes you minimally good. Or perhaps 'viable' would be a better word? Your party produced enough damage and Healing to kill all the things within the allotted time. Congrats. You've achieved the minimum possible standard to finish the duty.

"Minimum standard" and "good" do not mean the same thing.

[Nixxe]

I don't think that successful duty completion is a very good standard. Consider, there are 90 minutes on the clock. If successful duty completion was the only criterion that mattered, it would be perfectly okay for DPS to deal so little damage that it takes 85 minutes to complete the dungeon. They do their primary job (dealing damage), even if not very well, and the duty does not fail, so according to that criterion, it would be acceptable.

I think it is obvious or should be obvious that this is of course not acceptable and consequently think that this is not a suitable standard to measure by. A suitable standard should not lead to undesirable results if applied to other roles.

Despite never concerning myself with what other players are doing as long as we aren't wiping, I've managed to never have a dungeon take anywhere near 90 minutes. Something tells me your concerns aren't very realistic and I sincerely doubt there is anyone out there who just wants to auto attack the entire the dungeon, unless they're trying to troll the group.

[Taika]

Despite never concerning myself with what other players are doing as long as we aren't wiping, I've managed to never have a dungeon take anywhere near 90 minutes. Something tells me your concerns aren't very realistic and I sincerely doubt there is anyone out there who just wants to auto attack the entire the dungeon, unless they're trying to troll the group.

I've seen a SCH /follow tank and drink coffee.



But yeah I guess they were doing their part good enough, right...

The example of 90 mins was about if DDs and tanks would play at the same level than the SCH here in this example. But somehow only healers get defended when they decide to do something like this.

[Nixxe]

I've seen a SCH /follow tank and drink coffee.



But yeah I guess they were doing their part good enough, right...

The example of 90 mins was about if DDs and tanks would play at the same level than the SCH here in this example. But somehow only healers get defended when they decide to do something like this.

The faerie can reliably solo heal every dungeon up to Haukke Manor. I know because when I leveled my scholar, that's what I did, never leaving Cleric Stance ever. You may not like it, but the healer is doing their job adequately. Doing one's job adequately is not about the effort it takes, but the end result. If DPS could auto attack for damage on par with using their abilities, they'd be just as entitled to auto attack their way through every dungeon, even if it takes no effort. They can't, and indeed on many encounters there are soft or hard damage checks that need to be overcome, which will not be overcome if they do not use abilities. In order to adequately perform their job, they therefore need to use abilities, even though it takes more effort than the autofollow scholar.

Again though, I generally don't concern myself with what other people are doing unless we start wiping. Failure to try to micromanage or boss other players around has not resulted in any problems thus far and it seems unlikely that it would in the future.

[Taika]

The faerie can reliably solo heal every dungeon up to Haukke Manor. I know because when I leveled my scholar, that's what I did, never leaving Cleric Stance ever. You may not like it, but the healer is doing their job adequately. Doing one's job adequately is not about the effort it takes, but the end result.

Well, I think "doing one's job adequately" requires adequate participation, and claiming someone is adequately participating and / or doing their job in content while being afk and while all other members of their party are actually participating just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If DPS could auto attack for damage on par with using their abilities, they'd be just as entitled to auto attack their way through every dungeon, even if it takes no effort. They can't, and indeed on many encounters there are soft or hard damage checks that need to be overcome, which will not be overcome if they do not use abilities. In order to adequately perform their job, they therefore need to use abilities, even though it takes more effort than the autofollow scholar.

But if there are no DPS checks, why should the DDs put in more effort than auto-attacking? Isn't it adequate by your argument, if they just clear the dungeon in 90 mins then?

And how about the DPS checks that require tank and healer DPS, such as the last boss of Antitower (where both DDs are turned into dolls and the group will wipe unless the tank and/or healer do DPS)?

[Cinno]

The faerie can reliably solo heal every dungeon up to Haukke Manor. I know because when I leveled my scholar, that's what I did

Haukke Manor is a lv 28 dungeon... and you dont even get the Fairy until you get your scholor soul stone at level 30....