Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[Cinno]

Also, I still haven't gotten an answer as to why we queue as tank, or dps, or healer.

Because these roles are required. At the BARE MINIMUM, these are our required roles, but this is not and SHOULD NOT BE all they are expected to do.

The tank is required to keep aggro from the enemies and keep the party safe. But that doesnt require their full attention. They reach a point where they have such a hold on aggro that the other party members are most likely not going to pull anything off of them for awhile. Based on the ideas in this thread, at that point they should just stop. They have aggro, its maintained, so their job should be done. No more attacking unless they start to lose a mob and have to regain some of the aggro.

Or they could keep attacking, and keep contributing to the overall damage dealt by the party.

It's no different for healers. As a WHM main, I can guarantee that healing doesnt require our full attention. At some points yes. At larger pulls, yes. But even then we have tools to make the healing extremely simple. Protect to numb the damage some. Regen and Medica II to cause a constant regen effect. Asylum to improve this Regen effect even more. While the tank has three things constantly healing them, there's usually at least seven or eight seconds of downtime between having to cure the tank back up. Say you have to cure the tank three times during a pull. That's almost half a minute of just standing around doing nothing. That doesn't seem like a lot no, but figure it up. All the pull's in a dungeon, all the downtime of just standing around, it adds up. It's a lot of wasted time.

To answer your question, we queue as the roles because, at the bare minimum, those are the requirements of the job. But we should not STRIVE to do the bare minimum. That's just laziness.

[AutoWhit]

Every role provides you a different gameplay like every job. The thing is, casual content (everything out of Savage runs) has been designed in a way you don't need to heal 24/24h and this applies to some Savages turns too.
If you're aren't healing you should be doing something else that ain't slacking around when your party members are trying their best to clear the content for you.

Because these roles are required. At the BARE MINIMUM, these are our required roles, but this is not and SHOULD NOT BE all they are expected to do.

Please, someone point out to me where it says a player is "expected" to perform abilities outside the role they signed up for:

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...in/party_play/

[DinahDemiurge]

AutoWhit, how about you tell us what is good about standing and donig nothing. Please. How does this help the party?

[Sylve]

AutoWhit, how about you tell us what is good about standing and donig nothing. Please. How does this help the party?

It doesn't. By the same token, It doesn't hurt the party either.

Assuming all 4 members of the party are achieving their primary role, a duty will succeed. The speed at which this happens depends on how well the party does with secondary roles (except DDs, poor bastards only get to kill things).

Its a skill floor and a skill ceiling kind of system.
If a Healer is only capable of healing the party, They're standing on the skill floor.
If that Healer can keep the party alive while maintaining a steady output of damage, they're reaching for the skill ceiling.

Standard duties are designed with the consideration that 4 players standing on the skill floor can clear it. However, 4 players reaching for the skill ceiling in that same duty will be able to clear it much more effectively/efficiently.

All I'm trying to point out is that there is nothing inherently wrong with a Healer who doesn't throw down DPS during downtimes. Just as their isn't anything wrong with a Tank who isn't dancing in and out of tank stance to maximize their damage output balanced against their enmity generation and damage taken.
They're not going to be the best players, but as long as they're not failing your duty, why does it matter that it took you 5 extra minutes to clear? If you want speedruns, make your own parties and set your own rules.

[Zojha]

Assuming all 4 members of the party are achieving their primary role, a duty will succeed.

I don't think that successful duty completion is a very good standard. Consider, there are 90 minutes on the clock. If successful duty completion was the only criterion that mattered, it would be perfectly okay for DPS to deal so little damage that it takes 85 minutes to complete the dungeon. They do their primary job (dealing damage), even if not very well, and the duty does not fail, so according to that criterion, it would be acceptable.

I think it is obvious or should be obvious that this is of course not acceptable and consequently think that this is not a suitable standard to measure by. A suitable standard should not lead to undesirable results if applied to other roles.

[Sylve]

I don't think that successful duty completion is a very good standard. Consider, there are 90 minutes on the clock. If successful duty completion was the only criterion that mattered, it would be perfectly okay for DPS to deal so little damage that it takes 85 minutes to complete the dungeon. They do their primary job (dealing damage), even if not very well, and the duty does not fail, so according to that criterion, it would be acceptable.

I think it is obvious or should be obvious that this is of course not acceptable and consequently think that this is not a suitable standard to measure by. A suitable standard should not lead to undesirable results if applied to other roles.

If it wasn't acceptable to take 85+ minutes to clear a dungeon, SE would set the bar lower.
Once again, if you cleared it, even if it took you to the very last second to do it, makes you minimally good. Or perhaps 'viable' would be a better word? Your party produced enough damage and Healing to kill all the things within the allotted time. Congrats. You've achieved the minimum possible standard to finish the duty.

Its only unacceptable to a community who demands a dungeon to be finished in the fastest possible time, even if that means vote kicking players that are doing their jobs but not at a level deemed "good" by the random overgeared tool who just wants his tomes as fast as possible. Nevermind the circumstances of the poor bastard who suddenly finds himself without a party and bereft of an explanation as to why.

[Crysten]

If it wasn't acceptable to take 85+ minutes to clear a dungeon, SE would set the bar lower. Once again, if you cleared it, even if it took you to the very last second to do it, makes you minimally good. Or perhaps 'viable' would be a better word? Your party produced enough damage and Healing to kill all the things within the allotted time. Congrats. You've achieved the minimum possible standard to finish the duty.

"Minimum standard" and "good" do not mean the same thing.

[Nixxe]

I don't think that successful duty completion is a very good standard. Consider, there are 90 minutes on the clock. If successful duty completion was the only criterion that mattered, it would be perfectly okay for DPS to deal so little damage that it takes 85 minutes to complete the dungeon. They do their primary job (dealing damage), even if not very well, and the duty does not fail, so according to that criterion, it would be acceptable.

I think it is obvious or should be obvious that this is of course not acceptable and consequently think that this is not a suitable standard to measure by. A suitable standard should not lead to undesirable results if applied to other roles.

Despite never concerning myself with what other players are doing as long as we aren't wiping, I've managed to never have a dungeon take anywhere near 90 minutes. Something tells me your concerns aren't very realistic and I sincerely doubt there is anyone out there who just wants to auto attack the entire the dungeon, unless they're trying to troll the group.

[Taika]

Despite never concerning myself with what other players are doing as long as we aren't wiping, I've managed to never have a dungeon take anywhere near 90 minutes. Something tells me your concerns aren't very realistic and I sincerely doubt there is anyone out there who just wants to auto attack the entire the dungeon, unless they're trying to troll the group.

I've seen a SCH /follow tank and drink coffee.



But yeah I guess they were doing their part good enough, right...

The example of 90 mins was about if DDs and tanks would play at the same level than the SCH here in this example. But somehow only healers get defended when they decide to do something like this.

[Zojha]

Something tells me your concerns aren't very realistic [...]

I'm merely pointing out the flaws in other people's criteria on what is acceptable behavior and what is not. And all I did to that end was to apply it to DPS as well. Nothing more, nothing less. And doing so leads to results I find undesirable.

Luckily, most people I meet in the game actually do not use that criterion but rather use the one I personally proposed, which is that you should always strive to do something productive and ideally efficient regardless of role. As such, my dungeons thankfully do not take anywhere near 90 minutes either. Naturally, I find that criterion vastly superior to the one of duty completion as a result. But for some reason, other people don't, which I find both surprising and disturbing.