How would they fix PLD 4.0?

[Reynhart]

yeah of course but looking of today for example that upgrade become useless in term of mitigation, with being so focus on DPS and the actual power of the healers and the sch/ast shields, if paladin is MT is still have the problem of get cast interrup getting more dps lose for just a shield that a healer can put on you more easy and lose less dps that paladin, and if we go to the OT side storm path is still better that clemency in that field plus all the dps war brings.

The idea is not to push WAR away, but offering a strategic use of PLD as an OT. A PLD OT could cast Clemency on a WAR MT without fearing interruption, allowing the WAR to skip even more Defiance uptime.

[shao32]

The idea is not to push WAR away, but offering a strategic use of PLD as an OT. A PLD OT could cast Clemency on a WAR MT without fearing interruption, allowing the WAR to skip even more Defiance uptime.

i dont mean push WAR away (even if they deserve it), all tanks deserve being played, just point that upgrade in the current meta and the current status of healers dont go to solve nothing saddly, players want DPS, just that dps dps and more dps, adding more mitigation tools to paladin for others like that yeah can be fit by how paladin is and all that stuff, im agreed, but ppl go to still choosing the best comb for more dps for know, a extra shield dont go to make ppl sacrifice DPS when the actual healers can shield you and top you in seconds whitout any effort.

but lets say its happen what you say, PLD OT become desirable thanks to that clemency, this only go to change PLD place with the DRK, WAR is better MT by mitigation and utility, and DRK OT sucks by now changing PLD for DRK in this threat, i feel they need to focus PLD with DRK in the MT role, making both universal utility (dps) equal and keep they own str and weaknes improving the MT status with more rewarding mechanics, this of course if we get another tank how by desing shine more in the OT spot like WAR and have a balance of 2 vs 2.

i dont belive giving such mechanic is good for a 8 man party, actual healers are doing nothing excep DPS most of the time, adding that just go to make players go 2 tanks 5 dps 1 healer, like i say that skill effect can only work in a scenario where you dont want to break the number of role members in a party and the overall healer vs bosses status is change making that "extra" heal shield worthy and helpfull.

[Reynhart]

I dont mean push WAR away (even if they deserve it), all tanks deserve being played, just point that upgrade in the current meta and the current status of healers dont go to solve nothing saddly, players want DPS, just that dps dps and more dps

Here's the catch. Parties want more DPS. If you have a job with poor personal DPS but with such group utility that it pushes other's DPS, you can take it in a DPS party. And when you look at what's the dreadest part of tanking when you focus on DPS, you see that it's "having to use tank stance". PLD's role as an OT would be to act as the MT "tank stance".

but lets say its happen what you say, PLD OT become desirable thanks to that clemency, this only go to change PLD place with the DRK

You'll also need to make DRK more desirable as an OT. The idea I had for DRK is to have party leech abilities, reducing the need for BRD's song or MCH's turrets thus, allowing them to keep their DPS at full power more. For example, I'd give Sole Survivor a higher uptime and, if you use it out of Grit, hitting the target will refill the attacker's TP.

If you want to keep DRK and PLD as the MT type, you have to keep WAR as the OT type, which is a really big problem, since you can end with two WAR in a DF setup.

I think there would definitely be a balance issue if the same meta / mindset carries into Stormblood, but short of that, I too would love to see skillful on-demand blocking from GLDs/PLDs.

I don't see how. By having GCD block, you'd just have to chose wether you want to deal damage, or reduce them.

Wasn't it shown that Sword Oath PLD was extremely competitive as OT now after the buffs? The problem with PLD is that their DPS as MT is *FAR* below DRK and WAR. As OT though, they're pretty on par.

Yes, as personal DPS, SwO PLD is not bad. But it loses so much of its utility that, if for some reason your WAR is the MT, you'd better have a DRK as an OT.

[shao32]

If you have a job with poor personal DPS but with such group utility that it pushes other's DPS, you can take it in a DPS party

yeah but you have already that with PLD, stoneskin, cover, clemency and divine veil, this 4 skills are what you want but you ask for have all in 1, is more simple reduce cover coldown with is instant and use clemency to heal the target after the hit, paladin have already this utility and dont help hem with the currtent meta, adding more dont go to change nothing.

If you want to keep DRK and PLD as the MT type, you have to keep WAR as the OT type, which is a really big problem, since you can end with two WAR in a DF setup.

that theory was built around getting a new tank in this expansion, obiously if we dont get it we need to improve OT and MT spots bcs have 3 jobs for 2 spot is alwais a damm maddnes, puting DRK in BRD/MCH utility field i dont think is go to be a good idea without more extra work on balance those 2 with the rest of the dps, tank balance fly around of WAR utility here the storms path and eye, is more simple put that buffs like a personal buff instead that a party one, same for DRK reprisal.

my vision for a better balance work around reducing that raid utility buffs to a role side like much, dps raid buffs only for dps, tanks for tanks, healers for healers, adding more and more raid utility to make a job usefull make other jobs performance need to work around that utility to work at full potency like NIN need a WAR, with more jobs incoming and sure the 5.0 we get more jobs this going to be worse, PLD have a lot of utility but cant mach with the storms.

[Reynhart]

paladin have already this utility and dont help hem with the currtent meta, adding more dont go to change nothing.

I don't think so. PLD just don't have enough of it. Divine Veil is either too weak or have a too long CD, on top of not affecting the PLD itself. Especially if you compare that with Storm's Path, (or even Delirum, since DRK use it on its optimal rotation) that can have 100% uptime if needed.
Having to "waste" a GCD to cast a long heal and another GCD to put up Stoneskin is just crippling, considering Clemency will probably hit an already healed target (If you have a preemptive healer) and that Stoneskin will be removed by the next auto-attack, while leaving your target at the same HP.

that theory was built around getting a new tank in this expansion, obiously if we dont get it we need to improve OT and MT spots bcs have 3 jobs for 2 spot is always a damm madness

The problem is still the same with 4 tanks. Any tank needs to be viable as a MT, because you can't "force" a setup, and an OT-oriented tank will likely offer a higher DPS for a non-noticeable-if-even-truly lower mitigation. So, basically, if we have a 2nd OT-oriented tank, it will just push PLD and DRK away.

puting DRK in BRD/MCH utility field i dont think is go to be a good idea without more extra work on balance those 2 with the rest of the dps

You can't simply balance jobs on a 1-on-1 basis. The only way to create a proper balance is by creating a synergy. If you create a synergy between DRK and BRD/MCH, it won't change the personal DPS on those. But, a BRD/MCH will do higher numbers if a DRK in your party. It's exactly like the piercing or slashing debuffs.

my vision for a better balance work around reducing that raid utility buffs to a role side

You can't really do that. Would you remove the slashing debuff from WAR ? Would you change Battle Litany and Trick Attack to only apply to DPS jobs ?

The good point of having multiple jobs is precisely that no job should always be above others. You should always say "This job is better if we have that other job..." in a "party-setup-rock-paper-scissors" balance.

[shao32]

I don't think so. PLD just don't have enough of it

PLD have a lot of it, is the tank with more mitigations tools, improving that raid or outside mitigation tools dont solve nothing for now bcs tanks only need to survive the hit, having any extra mitigation dont go to prevent nothing more if you use the example of WAR mt the job how have the most agro generation and DRK is not diferent, even NIN solve that with shadewalker, all that extra mitigation only can work the first weeks of progresion only, the rest of the time PLD go to take away bcs they utility is unnecesary like now by getting propergeared or overgeared and getting better overall DPS in the end, players go to avoid that mitigation if its not necesary for take more DPS, the healer go to heal the tank anyway, so or you make PLD can keep the MT after the hit alone or become useless again, a shield is only for tank busters, a regen effect its can be for all the fight.

Any tank needs to be viable as a MT

being viable MT dont mean being better at MT with is diferent, all tanks are actual viable in both spot, DRK and PLD are by far better on MT but only WAR is better on 2 spot primarily by the actual desing of our tank stances making us being MT whiout it and letting the WAR dont have to face they defiance penalty, the actual desing of the jobs prove they put DRK and PLD for the MT get benefic of being hit and WAR for the OT with they burst set, just they fail on the tank stances making WAR can avoid all that was supose to sacrifice in that spot.

Would you remove the slashing debuff from WAR?

it can be a posibility, not remove the effect but being a personal 10% damage buff instead, storm eye is the most powerfull buff for now not only incresing the damage of the tanks, they buff and improve a lot ninja rotation, its actually so huge for being a main combo for WAR rotation, meaby on DPS no, we all do dps anyway, so we can keep battle litany and trick attack, apart excep monk no other dps job is "taking away"

buffing by buffing its a game breaking in the end alwais get out of control, control and put a limit of raid utility spreading it betwen all the jobs its good, geting more and more without control no bcs the next threat we go to get can be for DRK or WAR or what new job its coming crying bcs no one want it in they party.

[bswpayton]

[QUOTE=shao32;4027482]PLD have a lot of it, is the tank with more mitigations tools, improving that raid or outside mitigation tools dont solve nothing for now bcs tanks only need to survive the hit, having any /QUOTE]

Warrior to me Is just the best tank period , and I somewhat main a pali, they have the highest potency attack in the game fell cleave, along with storms eye. I think a few things can be done to help pali but many disagree, I think a quick start would be to change the oaths for one its just common sense give pali shield at level 30 why they haven't done this is beyond me. Give pali more damage aoe, warrior has 3 including overpower, drk has 3 including unleash. Paladin has an ability it can use ever 25 seconds while both of the other tanks can use flash, but in a game build on speed runs I think its a disservice to force pali to only weave their combos to get damage on all mobs and wait 25 seconds to hit everything at once.

The cooldown should be brought down to at least 10 seconds, they also should lower the mp cost of clemency I think that 2000 plus is way to much considering how easy the other tanks have access to some of their better abilities. Also they should lower the gcd of spirits withing , the potency isnt that high to be on a 25 second gcd when its also yet another single target ability. As it stands RA potency is 350, with both other tanks having abilities that outpace this from 100 to 150 potency, at the least they could give paladin more aoe, and make some of their abilities more accessible sense they automatically will always do less damage than the other tanks. The mitigation of paladin is overstated to me a bit with awareness being cross class, sentinal doesnt really stand that far above shadow wall to me.

[Reynhart]

PLD have a lot of it, is the tank with more mitigations tools

He has a lot of self-mitigation tools. When it comes to mitigating damage for the party, it's actually the weakest.

improving that raid or outside mitigation tools dont solve nothing for now bcs tanks only need to survive the hit

Yes, and most of the time, the really meaningful hits you have to survive kind of requires your tank stance, even for only a few seconds. Give PLD something to counter even that, and it will have something to offer different than WAR or DRK.
The idea is, basically, if you have a PLD OT, your MT doesn't need its tank stance.

being viable MT dont mean being better at MT with is diferent

In a DPS centered meta, it's almost the same. What do you need to be a tank ? Basically, generating enmity and surviving. Enmity is clearly a non-issue, so let's put that away. PLD might be considered a "better MT" than WAR, because, with (debatable) more self-mitigation, it can survive more. But, as you said earlier, "as long as you survive enough, more is useless", and since WAR does more damage, as long as he's viable, he's better.

it can be a posibility, not remove the effect but being a personal 10% damage buff instead, storm eye is the most powerfull buff for now not only incresing the damage of the tanks, they buff and improve a lot ninja rotation

They already have Maim for that...and on 2nd-tier WS. But remove Slashing Debuff, and you'll have a horde of WAR and NIN raging on the OF for years

we all do dps anyway, so we can keep battle litany and trick attack, apart excep monk no other dps job is "taking away"

Yes, we all do DPS. And since jobs are "balanced" between high personal DPS and high raid-utility (Mostly DPS ), it's only logical for tanks to play by the same rules.

buffing by buffing its a game breaking

I think it's less game breaking to indirectly buff DPS by opening strategic setups than by buffing personal DPS. And since DPS is the only meta that matters (saddly) this is the only lever for job desirability.