How would they fix PLD 4.0?

[Reynhart]

barrier effects or get overpower like scholar ones or get pretty useless on combat like stoneskin

Regen is a really weak proactive mitigation, which is the whole point of PLD. Stoneskin is a good spell, but does very litte when the situation is already risky. Having Clemency covering both healing and mitigation could be really powerful.

On a sidenote, I'd make the barrier from Clemency stack with Galvanize by being the same status as Divine Veil (Thus, not stacking with Divine Veil). Again, it could offer powerful GCD mitigation...but that's not a problem. PLD is supposed to do that, and keep in mind that Clemency still uses a GCD and interrupts combo, reducing your own DPS...but allowing others to do more damage (MT staying out of tank stance, a DPS able to eat an AoE to stay at close range, etc...)

Hell, I still think Block could be a GCD action without any real balance issue...

[shao32]

snip

yeah of course but looking of today for example that upgrade become useless in term of mitigation, with being so focus on DPS and the actual power of the healers and the sch/ast shields, if paladin is MT is still have the problem of get cast interrup getting more dps lose for just a shield that a healer can put on you more easy and lose less dps that paladin, and if we go to the OT side storm path is still better that clemency in that field plus all the dps war brings.

i dont say is a bad idea more when looks like paladins go to lose stoneskin with the battle system revamp, but many changes need to be done to make that clemency being more usefull, like adding a surecast to paladin for the MT spot yeah can work very nice, idk is hard to imagine a change like that without knowing what they go to do, in the actual status i see that dont go to change much the status of the paladin, but in a scenario where healers lose healing power, boses hit with more sustancial damage an less raw damage and less dps checks then yeah i can see that clemency very powerfull, i say regens bcs no mather the path devs go to follow in the expansion that buff can adapt, but yeah thinking about it still gets the same problems in the MT spot with the shield version, but can be a better gain bcs can be on more longer.

[Reynhart]

yeah of course but looking of today for example that upgrade become useless in term of mitigation, with being so focus on DPS and the actual power of the healers and the sch/ast shields, if paladin is MT is still have the problem of get cast interrup getting more dps lose for just a shield that a healer can put on you more easy and lose less dps that paladin, and if we go to the OT side storm path is still better that clemency in that field plus all the dps war brings.

The idea is not to push WAR away, but offering a strategic use of PLD as an OT. A PLD OT could cast Clemency on a WAR MT without fearing interruption, allowing the WAR to skip even more Defiance uptime.

[shao32]

The idea is not to push WAR away, but offering a strategic use of PLD as an OT. A PLD OT could cast Clemency on a WAR MT without fearing interruption, allowing the WAR to skip even more Defiance uptime.

i dont mean push WAR away (even if they deserve it), all tanks deserve being played, just point that upgrade in the current meta and the current status of healers dont go to solve nothing saddly, players want DPS, just that dps dps and more dps, adding more mitigation tools to paladin for others like that yeah can be fit by how paladin is and all that stuff, im agreed, but ppl go to still choosing the best comb for more dps for know, a extra shield dont go to make ppl sacrifice DPS when the actual healers can shield you and top you in seconds whitout any effort.

but lets say its happen what you say, PLD OT become desirable thanks to that clemency, this only go to change PLD place with the DRK, WAR is better MT by mitigation and utility, and DRK OT sucks by now changing PLD for DRK in this threat, i feel they need to focus PLD with DRK in the MT role, making both universal utility (dps) equal and keep they own str and weaknes improving the MT status with more rewarding mechanics, this of course if we get another tank how by desing shine more in the OT spot like WAR and have a balance of 2 vs 2.

i dont belive giving such mechanic is good for a 8 man party, actual healers are doing nothing excep DPS most of the time, adding that just go to make players go 2 tanks 5 dps 1 healer, like i say that skill effect can only work in a scenario where you dont want to break the number of role members in a party and the overall healer vs bosses status is change making that "extra" heal shield worthy and helpfull.

[Reynhart]

I dont mean push WAR away (even if they deserve it), all tanks deserve being played, just point that upgrade in the current meta and the current status of healers dont go to solve nothing saddly, players want DPS, just that dps dps and more dps

Here's the catch. Parties want more DPS. If you have a job with poor personal DPS but with such group utility that it pushes other's DPS, you can take it in a DPS party. And when you look at what's the dreadest part of tanking when you focus on DPS, you see that it's "having to use tank stance". PLD's role as an OT would be to act as the MT "tank stance".

but lets say its happen what you say, PLD OT become desirable thanks to that clemency, this only go to change PLD place with the DRK

You'll also need to make DRK more desirable as an OT. The idea I had for DRK is to have party leech abilities, reducing the need for BRD's song or MCH's turrets thus, allowing them to keep their DPS at full power more. For example, I'd give Sole Survivor a higher uptime and, if you use it out of Grit, hitting the target will refill the attacker's TP.

If you want to keep DRK and PLD as the MT type, you have to keep WAR as the OT type, which is a really big problem, since you can end with two WAR in a DF setup.

I think there would definitely be a balance issue if the same meta / mindset carries into Stormblood, but short of that, I too would love to see skillful on-demand blocking from GLDs/PLDs.

I don't see how. By having GCD block, you'd just have to chose wether you want to deal damage, or reduce them.

Wasn't it shown that Sword Oath PLD was extremely competitive as OT now after the buffs? The problem with PLD is that their DPS as MT is *FAR* below DRK and WAR. As OT though, they're pretty on par.

Yes, as personal DPS, SwO PLD is not bad. But it loses so much of its utility that, if for some reason your WAR is the MT, you'd better have a DRK as an OT.

[shao32]

If you have a job with poor personal DPS but with such group utility that it pushes other's DPS, you can take it in a DPS party

yeah but you have already that with PLD, stoneskin, cover, clemency and divine veil, this 4 skills are what you want but you ask for have all in 1, is more simple reduce cover coldown with is instant and use clemency to heal the target after the hit, paladin have already this utility and dont help hem with the currtent meta, adding more dont go to change nothing.

If you want to keep DRK and PLD as the MT type, you have to keep WAR as the OT type, which is a really big problem, since you can end with two WAR in a DF setup.

that theory was built around getting a new tank in this expansion, obiously if we dont get it we need to improve OT and MT spots bcs have 3 jobs for 2 spot is alwais a damm maddnes, puting DRK in BRD/MCH utility field i dont think is go to be a good idea without more extra work on balance those 2 with the rest of the dps, tank balance fly around of WAR utility here the storms path and eye, is more simple put that buffs like a personal buff instead that a party one, same for DRK reprisal.

my vision for a better balance work around reducing that raid utility buffs to a role side like much, dps raid buffs only for dps, tanks for tanks, healers for healers, adding more and more raid utility to make a job usefull make other jobs performance need to work around that utility to work at full potency like NIN need a WAR, with more jobs incoming and sure the 5.0 we get more jobs this going to be worse, PLD have a lot of utility but cant mach with the storms.

[Reynhart]

paladin have already this utility and dont help hem with the currtent meta, adding more dont go to change nothing.

I don't think so. PLD just don't have enough of it. Divine Veil is either too weak or have a too long CD, on top of not affecting the PLD itself. Especially if you compare that with Storm's Path, (or even Delirum, since DRK use it on its optimal rotation) that can have 100% uptime if needed.
Having to "waste" a GCD to cast a long heal and another GCD to put up Stoneskin is just crippling, considering Clemency will probably hit an already healed target (If you have a preemptive healer) and that Stoneskin will be removed by the next auto-attack, while leaving your target at the same HP.

that theory was built around getting a new tank in this expansion, obiously if we dont get it we need to improve OT and MT spots bcs have 3 jobs for 2 spot is always a damm madness

The problem is still the same with 4 tanks. Any tank needs to be viable as a MT, because you can't "force" a setup, and an OT-oriented tank will likely offer a higher DPS for a non-noticeable-if-even-truly lower mitigation. So, basically, if we have a 2nd OT-oriented tank, it will just push PLD and DRK away.

puting DRK in BRD/MCH utility field i dont think is go to be a good idea without more extra work on balance those 2 with the rest of the dps

You can't simply balance jobs on a 1-on-1 basis. The only way to create a proper balance is by creating a synergy. If you create a synergy between DRK and BRD/MCH, it won't change the personal DPS on those. But, a BRD/MCH will do higher numbers if a DRK in your party. It's exactly like the piercing or slashing debuffs.

my vision for a better balance work around reducing that raid utility buffs to a role side

You can't really do that. Would you remove the slashing debuff from WAR ? Would you change Battle Litany and Trick Attack to only apply to DPS jobs ?

The good point of having multiple jobs is precisely that no job should always be above others. You should always say "This job is better if we have that other job..." in a "party-setup-rock-paper-scissors" balance.

[Shurrikhan]

Hell, I still think Block could be a GCD action without any real balance issue...

I think there would definitely be a balance issue if the same meta / mindset carries into Stormblood, but short of that, I too would love to see skillful on-demand blocking from GLDs/PLDs.

[ADVSS]

I think there would definitely be a balance issue if the same meta / mindset carries into Stormblood, but short of that, I too would love to see skillful on-demand blocking from GLDs/PLDs.

hmm maybe tie it into bulwark? IDK I like the idea of giving PLD more spells, I fear that the role-cross skills might devolve its identity then i remember clemency is vastly superior to cure and DV is pretty much Stoneskin, with that utility after recieving a heal which could definitely be adjusted to spread like deployment tactocs fpr sch without taking its effect off the PLD?