Mentor minimum requirement is too low / needs adjustment

[Louvain]

Giving special "mentor" commends is certainly an appealing idea, but unfortunately, given the attitude many players express, it could be used against mentors. Given the spitefulness of many players in this game, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave a "negative" commendation simply for that person being a mentor, or for "being told how to play" when a mentor tries to give them tips (as was often my experience).

that is, assuming they can be bothered to commend at all and don't just leave the dungeon ASAP. You can't force people to give commends, no matter what type it is.

I do like the idea of turning the mentor status off when you're not in mentor roulette. Wearing the crown when you're leveling an unfamiliar class is just silly and gives false impression.s

[Vhailor]

Giving special "mentor" commends is certainly an appealing idea, but unfortunately, given the attitude many players express, it could be used against mentors. Given the spitefulness of many players in this game, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave a "negative" commendation simply for that person being a mentor, or for "being told how to play" when a mentor tries to give them tips (as was often my experience).

that is, assuming they can be bothered to commend at all and don't just leave the dungeon ASAP. You can't force people to give commends, no matter what type it is.

I do like the idea of turning the mentor status off when you're not in mentor roulette. Wearing the crown when you're leveling an unfamiliar class is just silly and gives false impression.s

In my experience, I have never, ever had someone react negatively to politely phrased tips. I've seen plenty of people THINK they're being polite when they're really being assholes, but not when advice is properly given. Either way, the notion that a few people might abuse the system shouldn't hold SE back from implementing it. People abuse the Party Invite system and /tell system (RMT), the Party Finder system (for buying runs), the visible MB prices (for undercutting), and so on and so forth - should we do away with all of them out of an overabundance of caution?

Also, there's loads of first-hand evidence available (virtually anyone who has played very long has at least one story) that suggests Mentors are often incompetent or mean-spirited. It's a far bigger problem than the risk of a few people trolling the system.

[JunseiKei]

~snip~

You've been incredibly lucky. I've seen this stuff long before the mentor system was even talked about. Older image used, but I've seen this kind of exchange many times (tank left before the "just helping" line came out). I wouldn't say we were acting negatively at all.



The pendulum swings both ways. There are bad mentors as well as people that can't take advice.

The term "abuse" entails misuse of something. While many people find it annoying, using the MB for undercutting is not abuse, nor are selling runs on PF anymore than using it to look for new members to raid. RMTs are another story altogether. We might have certain things annoying (like undercutting), but that does not mean it is abuse. Legit abuse are things like trading someone to stop a teleport, which is then report-able. It's really no coincidence that actual abused things are report-able.

If the leave negative feedback option was implemented and was automated, the system would be abused. People will report out of spite; people don't like being corrected. Especially when things are subjective; with text, it's hard to tell if it's someone's typing style or if they are honestly being rude. Being blunt doesn't deserve a negative feedback. I've told plenty of white mages (and other healers, but WHM players takes first place) complaining about tanks not letting them regen MP between pulls or bards not singing Mage's Ballad 24/7. I've told them about their best friend, Shroud of Saints, and what the refresh status does and that every pull does not need Medica II up, especially if no one but the tank is taking damage. I've been met with majority of "omg stfu and don't tell me how to play."

Last time I had this happen was a little before Dun Scaith came out while running Mhach. WHM was complaining the bard wasn't playing Mage's Ballad the whole time and I told them playing that cuts into their DPS and explained they have Assize and Shroud for MP (which I had noted they had not used Shroud once up until that point). Oddly enough, it was their scholar co-healer that, apparently, got triggered and started to berate me. That WHM and I actually started talking and I exchanged tips with them. They were thankful (one of the few times! :>) while their scholar told me to shut up and uninstall and tried to vote kick me multiple times (thank god for mostly premade with friends. It was only the healers that weren't in the premade and since I did end up getting a commendation, I don't think it was the WHM trying to kick me).

If the system wasn't automated, it'd mean it'd have to be directed to SE workers (like GMs/ customer service representatives) and to be fair, they have more important things to handle.

[ADVSS]

Am honestly in agreement to having multi tiered, or maybe more specified mentor statuses that actually apply to what type of mentor they are., hell id be all for career this job, or as someone mentioned maybe have a raid mentor status too, Specialized job mentors could probably get instead of a crown, or with a crown the job icon theyre master of, idk

I do think the mount reward is probably responsible for a bit of the negativity toward mentors

[AlphaFox]

I think the phrase "unwanted advice" comes into play. I honestly don't know how or know the best way to give tips but it seems like asking first is the best route. "Mind if I give you some tips?" Really dunno though just depends on the situation though I guess. I know when it comes to tanks and hate that is more of a critical issue than an "ice" mage I guess but meh.

[Vhailor]

You've been incredibly lucky. I've seen this stuff long before the mentor system was even talked about. Older image used, but I've seen this kind of exchange many times (tank left before the "just helping" line came out). I wouldn't say we were acting negatively at all.

Negatively? No. Unwanted? Absolutely. Unnecessary? Arguably. I'm not at all surprised the player got miffed, though leaving seemed like a bit of a strong reaction.

Look, unless people are WANTING advice, it's not the role of a Mentor to provide it. If someone appears to be struggling, or if you're having trouble, you speak up: "The pulls are a bit big for me" or "I'm having to heal the DPS a lot, try to focus on hate a bit more." If they're new, you can ASK them if they want help, otherwise I'd hold off even doing that.

[JunseiKei]

~snip~

It's also unwanted when everyone but the tank ends up tanking (as what kept happening, hence why we even spoke up in the first place).

What, then, when you ask and they say "no" despite the issues? If you can't even perform your role at a baseline function, yet want no advice, then you're immediately back to square one. You're "forced" to suffer through a run with incompetent players, leave and suffer a penalty, kick them yourself, ask to be removed, or give that [unwanted] advice. Considering you're a mentor, especially if you're wearing the crown, most other players would probably expect you to say something (which I have also seen others ask players why mentors aren't mentoring).

It's a catch-22.

[Louvain]

-snip-

...but that IS the role of the mentor. If I see a player struggling, either with class or mechanics, I'm going to say something about it to let them know. There's no reason to let a someone struggle for the sake of pride. It is unfair to let hold the rest of the party back on that person's skill level either.

Anyways. Back on topic....I do agree that mentor requirements need to be changed to be more strict, but options to do so without facing the risk of abuse are very, very limited.

[NolLacnala]

etc

Your negative experiences are obviously the only negative experiences anyone has ever experienced, because everyone is obviously just an extension of you and your mindset.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotally experienced.

[Brian_]

Then please, instead of attacking my opinion with your own, state what you would change to make only those who are truly educated stand above those who would just farm Ifrit NM unsycned 10000 times if need be just to get the title of mentor so they may start earning the mount? Because as long as you have a reward people want at the end they will still do all that is required to start earning it, just because they are able to perform the best doesn't mean they are fit to be teachers or would even want to help. You say its garbage but some agree with me and I personally have no problem helping people for free, I don't need a shiny, oversized, steroid pumped Pegasus to want to help people.

I'm not attacking your opinion with mine. I'm attacking your opinion with actual logic and reason based on real life facts.

It's not my opinion that if you stopped paying professors and teachers that your education system would collapse. It's not my opinion that if you stopped funding schools they would have serious problems.

Meanwhile, all you've done is use your own situation to set an arbitrary standard for others.

Again, like I said in another topic where you had this asinine stance, raiding is the same. Some people argue that all rewards should be removed from raiding and that it should be purely about the challenge. No gear, no tomestones, no minions, no mounts, no achievements. Just your personal fulfillment. Anyone with a working brain knows that the raiding community would implode if you did that.

As with many things, it's about the carrot and the stick. It's about using rewards to get people to act the way you want them to. The same applies to mentors AND STUDENTS. Currently, there isn't much of carrot for mentors and there is no carrot for students to improve. And, the carrot for mentors is leading them in the wrong direction. That's not a problem with the carrot. That's a problem with the direction you are leading them in.