How would they fix PLD 4.0?

[Sarcatica]

But it would still be better than having PLD lose several skills when in the OT spot. Yet, I don't think all "real situations" requires that much swapping.

All I am going say is is there a need for PLD to be OT, same as DRK? I would actually rather have PLD and DRK be the MT group, just my opinion ofc and it's for sure easier to tune the 2 classes to be MTs rather than be both MT/OT swap-able. When they decide to release another OT, WAR can be swap-able depending on the contents, just like how PLD is 'normally' favoured in physical heavy fights (LUL). I feel that people who stick to 1 job is silly as hell, heck I was one too (PLD from 2.x till 3.2). If you are raiding, you surely have that time to level relevant jobs to suit your role in your team, feel free to say otherwise. People who are playing casual generally cbf with optimizing etc either so this whole balance issue SHOULD NOT bother them, and even then majority of them actually level different jobs as well.

[Reynhart]

All I am going say is is there a need for PLD to be OT, same as DRK?

For, me, yes, there is. Because even if you have time to level "relevant jobs", maybe you just don't like the job. I recently joined a new raid group, but since the party already had a DRK, I was told that it would be reeeeealllly cool if I could dust off my WAR.

Yes I can...but it's much less fun for me than playing my PLD (Or my own DRK, but stacking is a really really bad idea, so...)...to the point than the last somehow "relevant" content I did as a WAR was solo-tank Ramuh Extreme back in 2.3.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

Just want to run a couple other ideas past you, then, that I think might have similar effects to what I think you might be going for...

1. What about just making more attacks interceptable/split-able, and then giving Paladin a passive that allows his intercepted damage to deduct from the total split damage, essentially double-dipping on the idea of Covering for others? Or, if that would be too powerful, at least add his magic and physical defense to the calculations for all others struck by the same split AoE?

Now, this would also mean that DRK and Warrior have more defensive weight to throw around from the OT position too, not to mention DRK pulling more out of Blood Price without having to swap per 40 seconds and Warrior finally having a competitor for triple Fel Cleave in CD usage, but that benefit would ultimately favor PLD versatility and therefore throughput.

[Ideally, for me, this would simply come in the form of progressive AoEs, wherein a certain amount of damage progresses outward and is reduced with each mitigation calculation done against it, from the first person hit (total damage done to next then reduced by the amount mitigated) to the next, to the next, as the AoE spreads or cleaves outward. In this way a party could, say, stack from highest to lowest eHP or Defense against a (somehow undodgeable) Colossus's cleave in order to have every member survive.

Within that system, Cover could simply be a Paladin passive that gives the Paladin a second, enlarged theoretical hitbox. If any singly-striking attack would hit an ally through that hitbox, it instead hits you. Any AoE that would go through that hitbox to strike an ally grants the full benefit of your physical and magic defense to them as well. And with that, Paladin becomes the superior interceptor tank.]

I'd also slightly change Divine Veil so that the barrier actually scale with the healing received to trigger it. Like 30% of the HP recovered. It would still be a burden to receive a spell to activate, but it would reward good communication between the PLD and the healers to save a powerful spell for that, opening new strategic use for Convalescence...as an OT.

That will probably be far weaker than is presently the case, given how far tank HP has come along. Keep in mind also, that a single, pitiful HoT tick could trigger it. Do you want to have to click off Aspected Helios and pop Convalescence just to blow DV effectively?

2. That brings me to a possible revision to Divine Veil that you might like, within the same vein of versatility as above, but this time for potential party support. I apologize if I already posted this in a reply to you elsewhere.

Inspire - For the next 12 seconds, all damage, (active) mitigation, and healing you do generates additional primary output stat, Defense and Magic Defense, and maximum HP and MP, respectively, split among all party members within 25 yalms based on range and the percentage change in total resultant stat created. (Bonus HP most affects allies with less HP. Casters receive Intelligence, Ranged and Ninjas receive Dexterity, tanks and melee receive Strength, and healers receive Mind.) Effectiveness increases with total number of party members.

Okay, so the complexity of that would probably make it undesirable to implement, but the idea should be sound. You can use it to enhance the party's ability to absorb raid damage in any of three ways, and can enhance burst. These effects automatically level themselves as to provide virtually no waste, while giving the Paladin additional control through positioning.

Edit: yep, already posted that just a few pages back. Sorry about that.

[Sarcatica]

For, me, yes, there is. Because even if you have time to level "relevant jobs", maybe you just don't like the job. I recently joined a new raid group, but since the party already had a DRK, I was told that it would be reeeeealllly cool if I could dust off my WAR.

Yes I can...but it's much less fun for me than playing my PLD (Or my own DRK, but stacking is a really really bad idea, so...)...to the point than the last somehow "relevant" content I did as a WAR was solo-tank Ramuh Extreme back in 2.3.

If you dont like being forced to play certain jobs, quitting the group is easy. I don't see why you should be so fixated about having to be a WAR in the first place. If you like to play PLD, get into a team that is fine with that. No one should be forcing you to do what you don't like.

In fact I did quit a static in 3.1 because I wanted to play PLD instead of doing WAR or even DRK, pretty dumb if I must say. Ever since Midas though I pretty much flex both PLD/DRK and I came to enjoy DRK the most, now I can somewhat do WAR to a degree too as a matter of fact.

[ChloeGrace]

.

I've been kicked from DF groups because of the job I happened to be playing.
People will always see the path of least resistance as best, and whatever gets them what they want the fastest as being optimal.
If that means WAR/DRK in the current damage meta, and it allows the DPS to slack off and still clear, then that is what people will want.

Until the meta changes, or there are significant modifications to the jobs and combat system (yeah, right lol), paladin will continue to be a distant 3rd rate tank.

[Sarcatica]

If that means WAR/DRK in the current damage meta, and it allows the DPS to slack off and still clear, then that is what people will want.

Until the meta changes, or there are significant modifications to the jobs and combat system (yeah, right lol), paladin will continue to be a distant 3rd rate tank.

There are always going to be the silly sheeps who just follows. People who change to play WAR doesn't mean that they suddenly become so good. It doesn't make sense to bring your 800dps WAR when your PLD does 1.2kdps. It's stupid.

High DPS tanks don't let the DPS slack, if you have low total DPS, your 2 tanks won't be able to carry still. It's rarely an issue tbh.

WAR/DRK while being the current best, it doesnt mean that PLD is no viable. Your thought process is flawed. Balance this balance that, you probably aren't even raiding, big deal. If you just want to be a sheep like everyone else, sure WAR/DRK is best because you say so.

You people are treating PLD like so flawed that the job cant clear etc, when in fact PLD can do huge DPS too, it's just less than what DRK can potentially achieve, and even then DRK is harder to play generally. I have a friend who is really good at PLD, 2k dps in a9s as PLD but his DRK deals less DPS than his PLD. Does it mean that DRK is actually the best? You decide.

The community itself is the huge reason why PLD mains feel shunned while truth is far from it.

[Reynhart]

1. What about just making more attacks interceptable/split-able, and then giving Paladin a passive that allows his intercepted damage to deduct from the total split damage

I thought about a kind of interception by allowing Sheltron to block the next attack "in front of you", i.e. even if you're not the target.

[Ideally, for me, this would simply come in the form of progressive AoEs, wherein a certain amount of damage progresses outward and is reduced with each mitigation calculation done against it

You already have "progressive AoE" as a specific mechanic, so, it could be weird to apply that on all AoEs.

That will probably be far weaker than is presently the case, given how far tank HP has come along. Keep in mind also, that a single, pitiful HoT tick could trigger it.

Just make HoT not trigger it. Like some skills ignore auto-attacks.

If you dont like being forced to play certain jobs, quitting the group is easy.

Raiding is not only about the job, it's also about the people. Changing job to play with people I like is my problem. The fact that this setup is more efficient is the game's problem. Especially when you realize that WAR is much more effective as a MT than PLD and DRK are as an OT.

You people are treating PLD like so flawed that the job cant clear etc, when in fact PLD can do huge DPS too, it's just less than what DRK can potentially achieve, and even then DRK is harder to play generally.

This is a twofold problem. First, we're not treating PLD like it's miles below the other two tanks. It's just...below. And second, your highlight on "PLD is viable because it can do huge DPS" still point the fact that everything revolves around personal DPS. If they don't push tanks in different directions, they won't be able to balance them properly as the number of jobs grow, while still retaining a very unique feel to each job.

I have a friend who is really good at PLD, 2k dps in a9s as PLD but his DRK deals less DPS than his PLD. Does it mean that DRK is actually the best? You decide.

No, it probably means that he plays his DRK worse than his PLD. One friend is hardly relevant. What do the fflogs rankings say about PLD and DRK ?

[Lambdafish]

Can cover be reworked so that it retains its effect but works like shadewalker and synastry instead of having a tether, I feel like that alone will make it more viable.

[Shurrikhan]

Can cover be reworked so that it retains its effect but works like shadewalker and synastry instead of having a tether, I feel like that alone will make it more viable.

So, just removing its minimum range? I feel like it'd make even less sense at that point.

[Brannigan]

I think you can stack a lot of stuff on Cover and have it still be pretty balanced. Do something like

Current damage interception + transfers hate generated for the duration to the paladin + heals affect both players. That'd be nice for openers when you have no ninja as well. The range thing I don't care about too much.