Thread: How would they fix PLD 4.0?

Originally Posted by Reynhart

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I actually finally got the hang of the stance dancing thing for warrior and I sort of feel like the tank vs dps stance gameplay could be expanded upon to make the gameplay even better. Definitely agree with you on drk and it comes back to my original point, I don't think every tank should have the toggle between (for lack of a better term that I can think of right now) tank and non-tank mode. In addition, I think by making the stance dance gameplay a warrior focused thing it could differentiate the tanks more and make them feel more unique while playing them.

I like your pld idea but I don't know if it necessarily needs that extra defense, I was thinking on something that enhances it's offense while in keeping with the protector theme of the class and I came up with a rough idea for a mechanic. Giving pld some sort of resource that it builds while fitting in with the whole earth aspect of the conjury thing you mentioned. So it would look something like this:

Earthen protector: Paladins can now block magic attacks, in addition, the paladin generates a resource when taking damage, taking damage while using Cover, and/or blocking attacks. Once it reaches maximum it makes the pld's next shield bash cost no TP, deal double (triple?) damage, and creates a shield that absorbs for the amount of damage dealt.

Granted, it's similar to a warrior's stance stacks, but the mechanics around generating it and what it does is very different and provides a different sort of payoff.

Originally Posted by Khalithar

I like your pld idea but I don't know if it necessarily needs that extra defense

PLD surely don't need the extra defense. But since the meta tends to favor using tank stance as little as possible, it would give an interesting synergy that a PLD OT will allow for even less tank stance time for the MT. If the MT can stay out of tank stance more, he can maintain a highest DPS, to compensate for the native lower DPS of PLD.

Originally Posted by Khalithar

Granted, it's similar to a warrior's stance stacks

WAR is not the only job that build a ressource by its rotation, so it's always an option. However, if it's tied to blocking or taking damage, it still cement PLD as a "MT job", which is part of its issue, whereas transfering buffs (Defensive and Offensive) or having a barrier-heal can be useful on MT and OT.

Another reason behind the Galvanize effect is the concern of the role-skills. We can assume that the cross-class skills will disappear entirely, so PLD might lose Stoneskin with this. By reworking Clemency, it would serve as a stoneskin replacement while making it much more useful.

And, on a last note, I'd also slightly change Divine Veil so that the barrier actually scale with the healing received to trigger it. Like 30% of the HP recovered. It would still be a burden to receive a spell to activate, but it would reward good communication between the PLD and the healers to save a powerful spell for that, opening new strategic use for Convalescence...as an OT.

Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Just want to run a couple other ideas past you, then, that I think might have similar effects to what I think you might be going for...

1. What about just making more attacks interceptable/split-able, and then giving Paladin a passive that allows his intercepted damage to deduct from the total split damage, essentially double-dipping on the idea of Covering for others? Or, if that would be too powerful, at least add his magic and physical defense to the calculations for all others struck by the same split AoE?

Now, this would also mean that DRK and Warrior have more defensive weight to throw around from the OT position too, not to mention DRK pulling more out of Blood Price without having to swap per 40 seconds and Warrior finally having a competitor for triple Fel Cleave in CD usage, but that benefit would ultimately favor PLD versatility and therefore throughput.

[Ideally, for me, this would simply come in the form of progressive AoEs, wherein a certain amount of damage progresses outward and is reduced with each mitigation calculation done against it, from the first person hit (total damage done to next then reduced by the amount mitigated) to the next, to the next, as the AoE spreads or cleaves outward. In this way a party could, say, stack from highest to lowest eHP or Defense against a (somehow undodgeable) Colossus's cleave in order to have every member survive.

Within that system, Cover could simply be a Paladin passive that gives the Paladin a second, enlarged theoretical hitbox. If any singly-striking attack would hit an ally through that hitbox, it instead hits you. Any AoE that would go through that hitbox to strike an ally grants the full benefit of your physical and magic defense to them as well. And with that, Paladin becomes the superior interceptor tank.]

I'd also slightly change Divine Veil so that the barrier actually scale with the healing received to trigger it. Like 30% of the HP recovered. It would still be a burden to receive a spell to activate, but it would reward good communication between the PLD and the healers to save a powerful spell for that, opening new strategic use for Convalescence...as an OT.

That will probably be far weaker than is presently the case, given how far tank HP has come along. Keep in mind also, that a single, pitiful HoT tick could trigger it. Do you want to have to click off Aspected Helios and pop Convalescence just to blow DV effectively?

2. That brings me to a possible revision to Divine Veil that you might like, within the same vein of versatility as above, but this time for potential party support. I apologize if I already posted this in a reply to you elsewhere.

Inspire - For the next 12 seconds, all damage, (active) mitigation, and healing you do generates additional primary output stat, Defense and Magic Defense, and maximum HP and MP, respectively, split among all party members within 25 yalms based on range and the percentage change in total resultant stat created. (Bonus HP most affects allies with less HP. Casters receive Intelligence, Ranged and Ninjas receive Dexterity, tanks and melee receive Strength, and healers receive Mind.) Effectiveness increases with total number of party members.

Okay, so the complexity of that would probably make it undesirable to implement, but the idea should be sound. You can use it to enhance the party's ability to absorb raid damage in any of three ways, and can enhance burst. These effects automatically level themselves as to provide virtually no waste, while giving the Paladin additional control through positioning.

Edit: yep, already posted that just a few pages back. Sorry about that.

Except that tanks actually swap as much as possible to get the most benefit, in the best speedruns. If you see a12s, there are 4 swaps from start till finish. This is currently the best optimization that pretty much kills your idea on PLD, mainly because it's never needed and won't have much use.

Aside from that, the easiest is obviously to rework PLD's kit to allow more and bring its DPS to match with the rest.

Let's do a simulation on a12s with your idea. The general idea is to let WAR tank the most, WAR has to stack a lot of CDs back to back for Heat tank buster. 1st phase to add phase generally no problem and requires no further help from PLD. The problem starts from after adds till the end, WAR has to save Vengeance and all the other small CDs for 1st stasis and Holmgang for 2nd stasis. During timegate WAR will only have ToB and RI, very unlike to survive the tank add so he has to tank boss. Vengeance and other small CDs will be up on 1st Inception and Holmgang on 2nd Inception before killing Alex Prime. It seems all nice and good EXCEPT that PLD loses a good chunk of damage from Shield Swipe every now and then. PLD can also tank a good portion of the tank busters with frequent swaps for more proc damage, ie. Stacking Rampart and Sentinel on 1st stasis tank buster and swap WAR for HG on 2nd stasis. Then there is DRK being better than PLD by a miles in a12s mainly because without Reprisal, the big difference is their DPS gap, Reprisal makes it better. Skin Wall DM slightly better than Rampart Sentinel. 2 small differences big enough are DRK will have Skin DM VS PLD with Rampart, during timegate. DRK will have Wall DM on 1st Inception VS PLD with Sentinel if they tank boss during Timegate. PLD overall needs more help to survive which doesnt allow healers to DPS.

TLDR: your idea doesn't do much on a real situation.

TLDR2: if you aren't into absolute optimization, PLD is fine. It can clear just fine and you can optimize with it. DRK is considered better on the upper realm of the top speedrun mostly due to the maximum damage output potential. Same goes to WHM and casters no doubt.

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Can you explain why there are so much swaps ?

The swaps are done so that they can do the most damage on the given situations.

WAR will have HGs ready for alternate tank busters and DRK can stack all CDs on the other alternate. DRK gets procs as well.

I do recommend you to search the vid on youtube if you are curious.