16 hours of cross server zurvan extreme party finder: my thoughts

[Crysten]

Due to real life commitments, I've had about 1.5 hours of practice at this fight so far. I'm not perfect at it yet, I guess I'm one of the players that is ruining the game.

This is exactly the kind of shitposting that is causing rifts in this thread.

Did you try doing that 1.5 hours worth of practice in a RF/PF Practice party? If so, then no, you're not ruining the game. Keep doing what you're doing and you'll get him down soon!

Did you try doing that 1.5 hours of practice in a PF clear/farm party and not making sure you could beat the equivalent Stone, Sky, Sea beforehand? If so, then yes you are.

People need to stop condoning the latter.

[DGladius]

Common sense is where you do not join a clear/farm party and to know all mechanics when you aren't at that level yet and waste other people's time. It's common sense that if you are learning a fight, you join or make a learning pf group. If you want help on your job you can ask around and research online, not when you join a clear or farm party and ask people in there.

PF is there for anyone to set up any rules they like. If you don't think you meet the criteria then do not join as you can make your own also. If you meet the criteria then feel free to join and perform to standards.

It's common sense that if you want to group with other players for some harder content, you prepare for the content and be ready to do your best along with your comrades.

[bswpayton]

So you guys really believe that seven people every time the op qued up had lied about what phase they had made it to in the primal. Or if we are just gona go with the dps that 4 people every party over the span over 16 hours, I highly doubt this. So I dont believe that many people lied just to get in ops party, and thats the defense you guys keep using. The op said 16 hours, and 50 dps or maybe even more, and your really gona believe that every person that signed up lied about the requirements to even get in the party?

[Leanna]

Got my kill after two hours and a half in a kill party. And yet the farm groups are more like wipe groups.
I'm really surprised about how a "move two steps to your left" mechanic is so hard to do properly.

[Crysten]

So you guys really believe that seven people every time the op qued up had lied about what phase they had made it to in the primal. Or if we are just gona go with the dps that 4 people every party over the span over 16 hours, I highly doubt this. So I dont believe that many people lied just to get in ops party, and thats the defense you guys keep using. The op said 16 hours, and 50 dps or maybe even more, and your really gona believe that every person that signed up lied about the requirements to even get in the party?

OP makes a PF.
Party fills.
Party goes into the instance.
One to two wipes later, one person has had enough and leaves due to one (or more) players not knowing what they were doing.
Party disbands.
Repeat for 16 hours until the mob is dead, then return to step one for a fair chunk of farming parties.

This has been a bog standard experience of any endgame raid party for the past three years.

[Dement]

So you guys really believe that seven people every time the op qued up had lied about what phase they had made it to in the primal. Or if we are just gona go with the dps that 4 people every party over the span over 16 hours, I highly doubt this. So I dont believe that many people lied just to get in ops party, and thats the defense you guys keep using. The op said 16 hours, and 50 dps or maybe even more, and your really gona believe that every person that signed up lied about the requirements to even get in the party?

No one said every DPS lied. Not once. However, if 1 or 2 of them lie that can easily lead to wipes at certain points like Southern Crosses... if you know how to do it you stack up and run the agreed upon direction... if you have no idea what you're doing, you may place an explosion in the direction everyone else has agreed to run. Handling tethers can just as easily lead to issues. So then what happens? You realize that 2 people of your 8 person party don't know what they're doing so you leave the instance to replace them... the second you leave the instance 1 tank drops, a healer and one other DPS drops because there's a high "jump ship" mentality that has existed since forever. Now you're back where you started and refill the party... this time the tank may not know what he's doing and wipes the party again... leading to the jump ship mentality.

OP called out the DPS because DPS frequently don't know their rotations. That may sound mean and I'm not pointing to any specific people ever but it certainly does happen more often than it should.

[Brian_]

Like I said, there is a place and time for teaching and learning.

I often hear people say that you have to give people a chance to learn. That if you are "elitist" and "exclusive" that people will never get the chance to get better. Obviously. But, that chance is not in a clear group. It's not in a farm group. Hell, given the fundamental issues many people have, it's not in an EX trial at all.

So where is that chance? It's in various tutorials on forums, youtube, and twitch. It's wherever you can find a striking dummy + parser or in SSS. It's in dungeons, easier trials, older content, alex NM, etc. If you can't even do your rotation on a static dummy, in a dungeon, or in an easier fight, how can you possibly think that you'll be able to while juggling the hardest mechanics this game offers?

When I first started playing this game, while I did have previous MMO experience as a top progression raider in WoW, I read guides. I watched videos. I was meeting common DPS standards for my ilevel. In live parses, I was at or near the top of all the easier content I did. I didn't need to have my hand held through content. I climbed the ladder like you're supposed to. I didn't jump straight into the hardest content without being sure I had done all I could do outside of it.

When I finally decided to gear an alt, I didn't run anything substantial on it. I spent a lot of time reading guides, watching videos, practicing on a training dummy and gradually worked my way up to dungeon runs, alex NM, and eventually some older EX trials. After I was basically top DPS in everything I did, comfortably cleared A12S SSS, and sometimes tripled the DPS of some other players, I decided that I was ready to do harder content on the job.

I think I'm a competent raider. I don't expect other players to have the same skill, talent, or time. But, even if you don't have the skill, talent, or time, you can still have the proper mindset and urge to improve yourself.

[bswpayton]

Like I said, there is a place and time for teaching and learning.

I often hear people say that you have to give people a chance to learn. That if you are "elitist" and "exclusive" that people will never get the chance to get better. Obviously. .

What your sayin is what Ive been pretty much spending my time sayin in these forums sense ive been here. The player base doesnt really allow this learning process you speak of u literally have to go against the grain.

Simply because people view things from their own prospective, que up for an extreme arr primal and watch how fast someone abandons the duty if you wipe once or twice. Try to que up for any binding coil and see how many hours it takes to even get a que on the normal mood version it will never happen. Sure you can hit a dummy are something like that but this game is mechanic based after all it is the ops main complaint is that people dying from the mechanics of the game not whether they are preforming rotations or not. The games environment and the players attitudes create players that cant preform, simply because once something is old to the player base it is no longer worth their time to let players learn mechanics of old content.

For trials you get 60 mins I have seen to many times and just like the people on this very thread have said one wipe two wipes gone, the player base will never get better because of how the content in this game is set up. Most of the people who are doing the hw primals prob never had or ever will have a sync clear of one of the original seven arr primals. You cant expect to basically skip over half of the games challenging content and expect people to be great. Same thing will happen when storm blood comes out new player comes to the game , will be able to skip all arr primals and raids through unsync , and then be able to do the same thing for hw primals and raids. And you think doing this is goin to create good players I dont think so , so until players attitudes change about how they do content which it never will you will always have players that arent good to your standards because they get to skip most of the challenge in the game.

Other games dont have this problem, for one alts are a thing in other games so repeating content is very natural and common to do doesnt grow as old. And the big thing is with new content every 3 months and out with the old in with the new, unless you are caught up on the progression in the moment your not gona have the same learning curve as people that are doing things while its fresh. In other games people will be farming the same raid for like a whole year cause they dont have it as good as we do. So I dont expect anything to change and thats why I dont really get to bothered because I know the game created the environment and the players assisted in making it worse. And on this primal I hear all these people talkin about how easy this primal is but then on my server Im hearing that its not as easy as you guys are referring to so its all a matter of perception at the end of the day and you cant just look at things from your own.

[Brian_]

What your sayin is what Ive been pretty much spending my time sayin in these forums sense ive been here. The player base doesnt really allow this learning process you speak of u literally have to go against the grain.

Simply because people view things from their own prospective, que up for an extreme arr primal and watch how fast someone abandons the duty if you wipe once or twice. Try to que up for any binding coil and see how many hours it takes to even get a que on the normal mood version it will never happen. Sure you can hit a dummy are something like that but this game is mechanic based after all it is the ops main complaint is that people dying from the mechanics of the game not whether they are preforming rotations or not. The games environment and the players attitudes create players that cant preform, simply because once something is old to the player base it is no longer worth their time to let players learn mechanics of old content.

Aside from the people who wrote and created the guides I used to improve, nobody had to allow me to do anything. You don't need a team of 7 people to pamper you to learn or improve. You just need the proper mindset and good guides / advice. There is plenty of good advice and guides out there. What's lacking is the mindset of improvement you need to make use of those resources. Instead, you have people with garbage fundamentals complaining others won't give them a chance when they obviously haven't given themselves a chance.

They're basically that kid in school that never does their homework, bombs all their quizzes and tests, fails basic algebra, and wonders why their teacher won't let them into their calculus class.

You have a fundamental lack of understanding of end-game. If all you had to do was pay attention to mechanics, any mechanic would suddenly become significantly simpler. What complicates mechanics and what frequently causes mistakes is the fact that you're also occupied with tanking, healing, and DPSing. You are hopefully trying to efficiently use your GCDs / casts in an optimized rotation, weave your oGCDs, refresh your DoTs and buffs, manage your CDs, manage whatever resource you use, hit your positionals, etc. If 0 DPS, tanking, and healing was required to beat Zurvan EX and all you had to do was the mechanics, the fight would be a lot easier. SE has echoed this sentiment with their assessment of tuning in Midas. They said that while they felt the mechanics were okay, they didn't properly adjust for how much harder to play the jobs have become in HW. They said that if we were still using our simpler ARR rotations, clear rates for Midas would be higher.

So when you say "sure you can hit a dummy or something like that but this game is mechanic based after all" your ability to execute your rotation is intrinsically tied to your ability to do mechanics. A lot of high-end raiders could probably out DPS 90% of the player-base while blind-folded. They could probably tell you every single action they use in the exact order of usage for large portions of every fight. A good DPS player doesn't look at their keyboard. They don't look at their hot-bars. They don't look at their buff, CD, and DoT timers. They're looking at the fight and mechanics because everything else is basically muscle memory.

My point is you don't need to do the hardest content in the game to improve your comfort level with your job to the point where you can easily execute your rotation while juggling mechanics. You don't need to wipe groups in Zurvan EX to make sure your opener is as natural to you as breathing. You don't need to waste the time of 7 other people to make sure your individual proficiency is at the level where learning a fight is purely about adapting to the mechanics.

So no, you don't agree with me and I'd rather you not distort what I say to fit your delusions.

[bswpayton]

Aside from the people who wrote and created the guides I used to improve, nobody had to allow me to do anything. You don't need a team of 7 people to pamper you to learn or improve. You just need the proper mindset and good guides / advice.e

I dont have any delusions not true I see people dying to mechanics every time I do any extreme primal, while people die in dungeons, its not the same as when people die in the extreme primals. But for you to say that you don't need in game practice and to just watch a guide is just silly , dps can push phases in fights but it will not keep you alive. Its the execution of doing the mechanics in a fight every time I que up for anything with extreme on it , mechanics are what kill people.

Its the biggest issue in the game of course someone who raids and thinks that top dps is the answers to all things will see differently, but you can have amazing numbers on a training dummy but if you have trouble with mechanics then you will die this cant be disputed. So like I said the op in her original post said not one single thing about dps numbers she said that people where dying to the mechanics of the fight, and for those whom think mechanics are simple then of course every fight will seem easy if you have amazing dps numbers. But at the end of the day if you cant do mechanics , then you are going to fail every time, and you learn mechanics in game not from watchin a video or guide I watch a guide for everything I do. Mr happy , mrs tech every piece of content that Ive done Ive watched a guide for, but I didnt learn any fights from them I knew what to expect but I learned a fight in game in the instance.

So yea if people aren't doing content no matter how well someone can do their proper rotation , if you dont know mechanics of a fight you will fail 9 times out of 10. I can give you tons of examples Ive seen where tryin to do mechanics and dpsing effectively at the same time doesnt cut it alone. For example the dps check in shiva extreme if people fail that the first time they easily do it the next, people start dying when shes in staff form and the ice is still falling from the sky, or when people dont move in time for her bow form. Titan extrme nothin to do with dps, landslide kills most people that die in that fight they simply fall off the platform, Levitan extreme Ive never seen a single person die until the gates come off the boat and they have to start dodging him not because they cant dps him because he actually cant even be attacked while hes doing this. Gaurda extreme nothing to do with dps its tanks not separating the two adds properly or not doing the spiny swap properly or dying to the tornados. When I did ravana people fall off the platform, and die thats not a dps check thats just reaction time to mechanics again. Ramuh extreme people die from not doing the mechanics in the fight properly like not breaking people out of charmed correctly or not gathering orbs properly. Its kinda a given that you have to dps , heal , and tank during these fights but if people could do mechanics properly even if your dps is low you can still clear a fight, if you cant do mechanics then you are going to fail every time.

So mechanics come first dps comes second because you have to not die from mechanics to dps in the first place. Like I said its all about perception if you come from the mindset that the mechanics in the game is easy then you want see any type of challenge, but if you accept the reality that what people die from is the mechanics then maybe you will understand that the only way they will learn is through practice and people willing to be in these instances and do the content as it was intended. You brought dps up the op said nothing about dps in their opening post they went on a rant about how people died to as they said brain dead mechanics.