When did this become a trend?

[MeridaQ]

@technole

What is the first most difficult savage healing?

[technole]

Midas Savage. Although Gordias is pretty darn close.

A few things stand out. It was the first time they ever nerfed a heal check mechanic, in A6S in the middle of the patch. The healing needed from the Brawler orb damage is impossible if you didn't coordinate the orb stun. Overall I think they did it just to eliminate the frustration from constant progression wipes, and shaving 200k off of Vortexer was probably the most serious in helping push through.

Darkness damage. It's all over the place from bio to j-kicks and Arcanist Virus is useless for it. Astrologian was pretty darn good in this area with Disable/CU support. We came from it all over the place in Midas Savage to just one mechanic in Creator Savage having it.

Highwire boss damage up stacks. Two or more deaths in A7S just makes it practically a wipe. Same with A8S pretty much with BJ. More groups used tank LB for J-kick progression because the timing of the mitigation needed.

Then of course everyone wanted to avoid the waterspout damage in A8S because of the positioning, healing and damage loss. So saccing the DPS to it was just easier. It's amazing they didn't let this become an automatic wipe like A6S if the player with water dies.

[MeridaQ]

Oh interesting, I took a break during Midas so I am not sure how they compared to Gordias.

[Taika]

This is correct. And except for tank busters, the damage that tanks took were so low that healers could effectively DPS with impunity

This is very much incorrect. I think you've mentioned you haven't actually raided Alexander, so why would you claim something like this without any personal experience? Gordias required a lot from healers also in terms of healing when it came out, in fact much more than any other previous raid (perhaps excluding Savage Coil since I didn't do that one). I remember preys + tank busters being difficult in A1, but also the adds and group-wide AoEs. In A2 there were some very difficult waves (we had trouble with especially the last one and the one after the dolls) and A3 was just a nightmare in its entirety. A4S we didn't beat when it was current (only got to the last phase), but that wasn't a piece of cake either even when we were progressing in it at the end of the raid cycle.

[Seraphyna]

Also, please do not blame poor performance of a healer on DPS / Cleric Stance. It's a method to optimize as a healer and the pinnacle of healer performance is making full use of their tool kit in an optimal manner.

It is when you have one healer that refuses to get out of CS due to "my deeps". That is absolutely poor performance due to healer DPS and letting the party die because of it. I've had this happen more times than I can count in A11 and 12.

[Accelerating]

It is when you have one healer that refuses to get out of CS due to "my deeps". That is absolutely poor performance due to healer DPS and letting the party die because of it. I've had this happen more times than I can count in A11 and 12.

More than you can count? Wow your healers seem to be very bad then.

[Taika]

It is when you have one healer that refuses to get out of CS due to "my deeps". That is absolutely poor performance due to healer DPS and letting the party die because of it. I've had this happen more times than I can count in A11 and 12.

Of course it's bad play to refuse to heal when you should (and it is also bad play to refuse DPS when you should, although the latter is less likely lead to group members dying). No one has said it isn't. But claiming that promoting effective and skillful healer play through the use of all healer abilitys encourages this sort of bad play is a stretch.

Also, I have personally never seen this happen in A11 or A12 and have run them enough to gear 3 jobs, mostly on DPS classes. Not saying you're lying, but you really seem to have had awful luck.

[Ghishlain]

It is when you have one healer that refuses to get out of CS due to "my deeps". That is absolutely poor performance due to healer DPS and letting the party die because of it. I've had this happen more times than I can count in A11 and 12.

A healer who thinks their primary purpose is to DPS should just play a DPS. So, blame the healer's performance and mentality, not the tool.

You won't even notice the best healer's in the game because they'll know when to toggle in and out of cleric stance for maximum up time while doing their primary duty. But you'll certainly notice the worst, regardless if they use or don't use Cleric Stance - I've had my fair share of DPS-only healers and my fair share of healers that stand there until you die.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

But claiming that promoting effective and skillful healer play through the use of all healer abilitys encourages this sort of bad play is a stretch.

The vast majority of healers I've seen that demand the tank sit in tank stance when the extra enmity and mitigation is meaningless have always been CS focused healers, in my experience. Healers that are focused on healing have no difficulties handling mechanics and keeping the party standing, but even with a proper CD rotation, many CS healers I've seen have demanded pointless excessive tank stance uptime.

[Taika]

The vast majority of healers I've seen that demand the tank sit in tank stance when the extra enmity and mitigation is meaningless have always been CS focused healers, in my experience. Healers that are focused on healing have no difficulties handling mechanics and keeping the party standing, but even with a proper CD rotation, many CS healers I've seen have demanded pointless excessive tank stance uptime.

My experience is complete opposite and you can see all the best groups with high DPS healers also having their tanks in DPS stance.