Red Mage is Range Combat? (Discussion)

[Hagen]

I wonder if it will have white magic utility spells like Haste, Phalanx for the party or even Refresh, we do miss a class with a MP Goad. At least a raise like SMN has. I think it will be wasted opportunity to not have something that helps healers out a bit, kinda like Clemency but a regen instead.

[Gemina]

I'm going to be very pissed if RDM doesn't have support healing skills.


RDMS ARE MEANT TO BE HYBRIDS

They might get their own cure spell, or be able to cross cure/physick, but that will be about it. Nothing that would allow them to keep a party up, and DPS pushers will not want to use up a gcd on a weak heal. I'd imagine they will get something though so they can survive solo battles.

I wanted a healing RDM as well, but have accepted this is the path they chose. It is DPS, and RDM versatility will have to pertain to this role. It really is the best way to get the most out of what FFXIV can give RDM. I'm confident it will still get support spells that can be labeled as white magic such as haste, phalanx, refresh, and perhaps even their own raise/resurrection ability. But there is no doubt that the job is geared around rapid chainspell casts mixed with melee combat to optimize damage.

[AlphaFox]

I wonder if it will have white magic utility spells like Haste, Phalanx for the party or even Refresh, we do miss a class with a MP Goad. At least a raise like SMN has. I think it will be wasted opportunity to not have something that helps healers out a bit, kinda like Clemency but a regen instead.

I'd have to imagine they would be given some kind of battle raise or healing, even if your core job is DPS a skill here or there to just make a nod to its role as being able to use black and white magic. Granted calling it "red magic", lore wise, guess we just have to wait and see in the end.

[Mhaeric]

Then you may as well start getting pissed right now. The interview that just came out today quoted Yoshi stating they are "Pure DPS." So, they will not have support healing abilities.

Since they were listed as primarily Ranged DPS in the slide, with a sub explanation of melee/ranged hybrid, I am fairly confident that they'll get a handful of support type abilities like the BRD/MCH. At the very least similar to NIN's ratio of dps to support abilities. (I am in no way saying they'll have the same function as NIN abilities, just comparing the relative focus on support.) That said, I too don't see any healing abilities being added, except maybe like a mantra or second wind. A melee range aoe Phalanx ability (e.g. 20% damage reduced for 15s for all party members within 15y of the target enemy) would be more likely.

My guess for support abilities: debuff to magic and/or slashing, phalanx, speed buff, slow, silence, stun, heavy, tp/mp regen.

[Darkstride]

My guess for support abilities: debuff to magic and/or slashing, phalanx, speed buff, slow, silence, stun, heavy, tp/mp regen.

Or debuff to piercing rather than slashing. Red Mage uses thrusting attacks.

[Madrone]

LB & shared/unique gear are a really big deal as far as party comp goes. Need to know what they will be to get a better picture of where this hybrid DPS will fit in.

Slashing is covered with WAR or NIN. Blunt is covered by the only one who benefits from it. Piercing debuff is somewhat likely for RDM IMO, unless all its damage dealt is magical. DRG has a monopoly, and it potentially effects more than just the DRG. I'd also be fine with a more tactical/more universal damage taken debuff on a long cooldown though. Either one, or both.


Think of the utility across the board of DPS jobs (minus Ranged). RDM would have a similar degree even though its usually very high in utility, else it will be unbalanced and potentially niche itself into every "good" party comp.
ST= Single target by the way.

NIN: ST Enmity +/-, ST Slashing & All Vulnerability inflictions, ST Bind, ST heavy, ST Stun/Silence, ST TP recovery, ST normal item drop amount increase (4 pretty good things + typical debuffs)

DRG: AoE Crit rate up, ST Piercing Vulnerability infliction, ST Slow, ST Stun (2 good things, and some typical melee debuffs)

MNK: AoE Healing received +, ST Blunt Vulnerability infliction, ST Stun, ST INT -, ST Dispel (nothing all that great/pretty independent)

BLM: AoE Sleep, AoE Bind, ST Slow/Heavy, ST STR/DEX down, ST Magic damage taken -%, E4E, weak Physick (alot of cc and debuffs, and 1 good thing apocatastasis)

SMN: ST & AoE Blind, AoE Bind, ST STR/DEX/MND/INT down, combat Raise, E4E, weak Physick. Pets: ST Stun, ST knockback, weak tanking, weak damage reflection (whole lot of debuffs/flexibility, 2 good things raise/supervirus)

And then they mostly have personal things to mitigate/avoid damage, self hp/tp/mp recovery, drain-on-hit/siphon mp, and various ways to enhance personal speed/damage. NIN, SMN, BLM are on the high side of this spectrum (although caster debuffs/cc aren't that great for pve content), while DRG has less, but what it has is high value. MNK lags behind in utility due to being a personal DPS monster. I expect RDM to be on the high side like its caster brothers and NIN, and 1-2 things would be high value, even if Single Target.


Out of all that, I think RDM would have some of the following:

ST Sleep, Bind, Stun, Silence, Slow (these are pretty commonly attached to skills/spells or stand-alone GCDs/oGCDs)
ST Damage vulnerability infliction (5-10%) of Piercing, Magic, and/or All (debuff cooldowns, and/or delivered rotationally like melee jobs)
Caster/healer cross skills like Cure/Physick, Raise, Stoneskin, Swiftcast + some DPS ones (this whole system is up in the air though)

1-2 of these, and possibly more if they were self-only:
Self, ST or AoE Damage mitigation cooldown (Phalanx) or it could be personal only
Self or ST mp recovery cooldown, (Refresh self and/or party member)
Self or ST Speed boost cooldown, (Haste self and/or party member)
Self or ST party member melee damage boost cooldown (Enspell/Bravery/Faith) <-- could be reserved for a true Mystic Knight/SpellBlade
Self or ST party member damage reflection/absorbtion cooldown (Element Spikes/Reflect/Runic)


I expect RDM to get most of the typical debuffs/cc like stun, heavy, slow, bind, sleep; some kind of self-healing if not a spammable weak spell (possibly better at it than Casters), combat raise, one type of vulnerability infliction (unlike casters), ST/self Refresh, Stoneskin, and at least one variety of party/party member enhancement like but not limited to Phalanx, Haste, Spikes/Reflect, Enspell/Brave/Faith examples. Casters have some debuffs and CC, and those debuffs currently help reduce damage taken by the party rather than increase damage dealt by the party. Hopefully RDM will utility with 2-3 good things.

The problem remains... will RDM sit in a caster slot or a melee slot, or will it wind up so good its monopolizes its own slot? Its not that hard to out-compete casters at utility if you also have their LB.


Just my notes about Physick as used by Casters in general... as gear goes up its relative power level stays the same. So its healing value keeps getting lower compared to max hp. I feel SE should re-evaluate it or base attributes, as its a lot weaker than Second Wind. Though it is spammable, its just terribly under-powered and will be even moreso in 4.0 if nothing is done to adjust it or base MND. I don't think SMN or BLM need a very potent heal spell since its place is that of a general/basic spell learned from an outside school of magic. And yet if RDM had something similar, I would expect it to be stronger or to have a way to leverage it more properly in an emergency (like reverse Cleric's Stance). Caster heal's should do about 8-10% of a DPS/Healer's max hp IMO, RDM's 12-16%. Right now they do around 2% and will be even less in 4.0 without changes.

[GMERC]

[assorted silliness]

I don't know if you know this, but Red Mage has existed in games besides Final Fantasy XI.

[Madrone]

You may not have noticed this, but we do have a ton of spell, weaponskill, and ability names that were in XI. The two games are different style MMOs, but they share final fantasy jobs in common, even if the implementations are different. There might be some spells/abilities that I think FFXI did well, but you can bet that I don't love the many problems its RDM design suffered with.

Phalanx, Refresh, and Spikes are the only XI-specific things I listed. RDM have had full access to white and black spell lists up to a certain tier in most games. Even spellblade (enspell analog) has occasionally been usable by RDM. Phalanx could be pretty analagous to Apocatastasis, while Refresh would be like a variant form of Goad. Haste may forever be just an Astro card. My point was for RDM utility to dabble in party/party member defense and offense. I expect a very weak healing kit if RDM has one at all. Those things could not be present or could be self only. I'd still be happy murdering my enemies with a sword and spells. Don't hate on a guy's wishlist. I thought I was pretty specific about staying line with NIN/SMN/BLM utility, and presented it as I hope we get some/a lot of this.

[GMERC]

Even spellblade (enspell analog) has occasionally been usable by RDM.

Literally only in FFXI.

Which means RDM using spellblade is actually equally irrelevant to the job as equipping maces, which they've also done only one time ever.

[Madrone]

@GMERC FFXI is not the only one. Not a numbered title, but RDM also had Spellblade skills in Final Fantasy Dimensions. Magic Sword was pretty much the full spellblade set, while Attune Blade was Runic. I get that nerdy compulsion to correct factual errors too, but in fact RDM has had weapon enchantments in at least 2 games, aka what I meant by occasionally.

I suggested alternative names for self or ST ally damage boosts, Bravery and Faith. Should I have also listed more synonymous names for this kind of thing, maybe Sabre and Temper? They'd all have similar results when translated into XIV abilities, damage up. One reason weapon enchantment sticks out for personal use is that it can make all RDM damage be magical and use INT instead of potentially needing stance swaps to shift between magical and physical attacks. Almost all DPS have innate full-time/nearly-full-time damage boosts, whether its Maim and Mend type traits, Poisons, Heavy Thrust, Greased Lightning, WM/GB, or Astral Fire. So what do you think RDM's should be?


There's the usual debuffs and cc that most dps or casters have, some general cross role skills to hope for, and 6 examples of moderate - strong utilities I listed, of which I hope RDM gets 2-3. I'm sorry the names of some of those things were in FFXI. None of them are all that much of a stretch from what is in XIV already. And I'm mostly concerned with things that can effect the party or one party member. That utility space is limited and powerful in making a job desirable. There's quite a bit more room for personal buffs, which some of these might very well be instead.

Specific damage type vulnerability infliction is common and part of what drives some melee jobs' rotations. Broader types (magical, physical, all) are less common and either long cooldown or like Foe's use a finite resource that might be needed for a different effect.

Combat raise.

Any of these can be self-only instead:

An offensive bonus usable on a party member like Haste/Temper/Sabre/Enspell/Bravery/Faith would be great, and would be a cooldown, not a spell. Pick one of those whose name you prefer. Alternately as self buffs or stacks resulting from combo actions or chainspells any one of these could drive a rotation or be RDM's reason to change range & attack type.

Refresh could easily be the mirror image of Goad, for mp.

Phalanx could be similar to Apocatastasis and any other damage reduction cooldown, or it could be a weak shield that stays on until its duration is up no matter how much damage is taken. Runic could be a similar ability and probably personal.

Spikes or Reflect could be used on a tank to help contribute more damage like Radiant Shield's effect.