Red Mage is Range Combat? (Discussion)

[Gemina]

The class's innate trait was Revenge, which when they got hit, could proc and give them a free BP. In addition, they could also learn the 'Turn Tables' and 'Eye for an Eye traits, which gave a free bp on dodge and and increased crit rate to the max when the RDM hit low health. I equipped mine with a Red Muleta to boost the rate she got attacked, equipped the counter centric SAM skill set, a sword for more frequent limit breaks, and Buff Up for constantly raising stats, as well as E4E and The cover trait where she'd take the hit for a weakened ally. It worked fairly well, especially when Revenge procced multiple times. Not a gamebreaker, but a style I certainly adored most. Admittedly, I looked at the fact it had Revenge, and started to work on a build based around getting the RDM hit as much as possible, so I suppose I did the best I could to make it a true tank? XD My party was RDM, Spiritmaster, NIN, and BLM.

So in short, you don't like what you've seen from this short RDM clip because it makes no indication of tanking? You are talking about an attention grabbing RDM in a console version of the game, and this is an mmo where DPS and healers need to focus on NOT grabbing the attention of mobs. It is also really too bad that you didn't play RDM in XI, because you would have a massive amount of appreciation for the thought that has gone into this job for XIV if you did. I think SE knows they really effed up that job in XI, and have put a lot of thought into correcting that mistake.

You are too blind to see that in this very short video we see style that is unique to this game. No class/job weaves in and out of ranged/melee DPS. RDM not only does this, it also weaves in and out of casting magic and doing melee damage. From the video, we are guaranteed that the job not only does ranged DPS, but also gets up close and personal with the target to do melee damage.

Here is what I see in the video as the RDM commences battle:

Magic attack 1 [magic damage]
Magic attack 2 [magic damage]
Instant cast MA [magic damage] - very similar looking to BLM's Scathe
Tether to mob [melee damage] as indicated by Fencer's thrust animation
2x sword attacks [melee damage]
Flips back [melee damage] as indicated by cross slash animation during backflip that they slow down to make sure you don't miss it (how could you not drool at this)
Finisher [huge magic damage] animation very reminiscent to flarestar from FF IX.

Count them up, and even view the video to verify. 8 gcds are used, and are evenly spread 4x magic damage, 4x melee damage, and this RDM does it in STYLE.

You might have discounted that when the RDM weaves in and out of caster/melee range, they still cause melee damage. I haven't played all the jobs in this game past 30, but as of now, I am currently unaware of any job in this game that actually causes damage when it changes stances.

It is easy to come to the conclusion that players such as yourself enlighten others to the fact that there is no satisfying every gamer out there. Nostalgia, and a past oriented mind makes it impossible to introduce a class or job that lives up to your expectations. I personally wanted RDM to be another healer to compete with SCH, yet I am still giving this job every opportunity to be something really fun and awesome to play, instead of looking for every window to paint it black.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

So in short, you don't like what you've seen from this short RDM clip because it makes no indication of tanking.

I'm not sure how me complaining that there's great emphasis in keeping at range with the job design has anything to do with tanking. Sure, I was hoping for a tank, but I could very much accept an rdm that spends the majority of it's time in melee distance.

My issue with this version of RDM has nothing to do with tanking, and everything to do with the fact the sword so far looks like a complete afterthought, a one off gimmick, rather than a seamless blend of sword and spell to lay waste.

Further note, but there was only one, maybe two physical weapon skills. Chargein/retreat aren't going to be gcd weapon skills, but ocd abilities. You can see this much clearly with abilities like Spine shatter Dive, Repelling Shot, and Shoulder Tackle. There are no gcd abilities that forcefully reposition the user, so those attacks can be discounted as weapon skills, leaving four spells, and two physical attacks, or gcds as you prefer, leaving the gap closer/widener as ocd abilities. My gripe, which was explained multiple times already, is that this version of RDM is a caster with a one off physical attack gimmick, just judging on what we know so far. It won't be spending significant time in melee laying the hurt, it'll be predominantly hiding out in the back row spamming spells a safe distance away. That's my issue with this iteration.

Saying I'd have appreciation for this job if I'd played 11 is like saying I'd enjoy a McD's burger if I'd tried convenience store food, it does nothing to help, and in fact only worsens your argument.

You might have discounted that when the RDM weaves in and out of caster/melee range, they still cause melee damage. I haven't played all the jobs in this game past 30.

It's not changing stances, it's changing positions, and as of now, there are 4 jobs in the game that do this much. Bard(Repelling), Monk(Shoulder Tackle) Dragoon(SpineShatter, Dragon fire), and DRK(Plunge).

I have every job in the game at 60 incidentally, which a quick lodestone search would've uncovered and have extensive practice on each one mathing and learning everything I could to learn every nuance I feasibly could.

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter.

Factually incorrect. A red Mage is a swordsman that seamlessly blends steel and spells, has access to two functionally opposing varieties of magic, and has unmatched versatility. Even the most basic definition does not leave them as a caster first and foremost, but a blend of the two disciplines, which is a concept that's betrayed by what evidence we have available to peruse. There is a reason RDM is considered a Jack of all trades, and it most definitely has nothing to do with 'Caster first, Swordsman second'.

[Empress]

snip

I agree and with what they were saying about a new combat system I hope itll help the class actually be able to go in an out of melee and dps fluidly since atm being able to do that right now with the current battle system is too clunky and probably will have more problems than people will expect. for example: Rush on Monk but not being able to jump back is kinda dumb since its a martial artist with high kick and jump capabilities.

[Gemina]

I'm not sure how me complaining that there's great emphasis in keeping at range with the job design has anything to do with tanking. Sure, I was hoping for a tank, but I could very much accept an rdm that spends the majority of it's time in melee distance.

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

My issue with this version of RDM has nothing to do with tanking, and everything to do with the fact the sword so far looks like a complete afterthought, a one off gimmick, rather than a seamless blend of sword and spell to lay waste.

Play XI then come back. If you think this is an afterthought, you would dread at what they did with RDM melee capability in that game. In this game, it is going to be an intricate requirement to optimize damage. You seem to have been fed steak before beans. It might not do anything to help, but it is still the truth because if you carry an expectation of a job that cannot be met other than reliving past shit, everyone loses. Including you.

I am not sure why your are discounting ogcds. The stance changes likely are, as is the instant magic attack shown in the video, but it is all contributed to damage. Shit man, at least you got some kind of melee damage even if you want to look at it as only two gcds used. How about those of us who like the healing aspect of rdm? We didn't get shit. No heals used in the vid. Yet, many of us are still well on board to at least see everything the job has to offer before making an informed decision.

[Duelle]

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

That's debatable, since turn-based combat becomes about using what's most efficient per turn. Hence why something like enspells would never work with turn-based combat, specially when you have the option of using that turn for nukes or heals (which unarguably get you more bang for your buck). The base concept of the job is a guy with a sword that uses magic. Using a sword involves being in melee range. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if they had shown us the RDM in melee range doing their thing with Lunge (gap closer) and not-Repelling Shot acting as mere mobility tools. As I've said, it's almost like they ignored the feedback from the melee threads.

Play XI then come back. If you think this is an afterthought, you would dread at what they did with RDM melee capability in that game.

One has nothing to do with the other. XI's RDM was a disservice to everyone who liked the idea of a magic swordsman, but this seeming token use of melee attacks is not a positive on its own.

I am not sure why your are discounting ogcds. The stance changes likely are, as is the instant magic attack shown in the video, but it is all contributed to damage. Shit man, at least you got some kind of melee damage even if you want to look at it as only two gcds used.

Again, melee mage. Magic swordsman. Do you realize how nonsensical it sounds to force a guy with a short-range melee weapon to have to get away from their target? At this point the only difference between this and the FFXI version is that at least the RDM gets to keep their sword on instead of dropping the sword entirely for a staff. Given the trick weapon the job was given, even that is only a half-truth.

How about those of us who like the healing aspect of rdm?

You mean the ternary element of the job's concept that is not enough to design a job around? Not even getting into shit like pink mage nor how iconoclastic it is for the guy with a sword and magic to become a heal bot.

[GMERC]

Not even getting into shit like pink mage nor how iconoclastic it is for the guy with a sword and magic to become a heal bot.

The only heal bot you should ever have in your party is named Eos. If your human healers are heal bots, they need replacing because they're dead weight. Proper Healers can do plenty of damage, and while Healer Role wasn't something I wanted RDM to be anymore, it still would have been a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the job.

[Hyrist]

*snip*

Duelle,

You've become far too hardline in this stance over time, and you're beginning to mar yourself and other proponents by doing so.

First off, Red Mage was never swordsman first. In truth if we're speaking logicly, the casting has always taken the forefront of Red Mage, though always entangled and by a narrow margin. I'm not talking FFXI exclusively here, I'm talking through it's whole history. Please do not historically confuse Red Mage with Sorcerer. Sorcerers has always been the sword-caster.

That said, Melee is an inseparable part of the class and yes, the meta of FFXI did Red Mage a large disservice. But to stress, THIS IS NOT HAPPENING HERE. It was abundantly clear that a good portion of skill kit comes from adjusting the class's positioning. This would not be needed if it was primarily attacking only from range. To have both a closer, and a distance maker indicates that this class will be diving in and out of close range frequently. So both caster and melee will be important implementation.

And to be completely fair, attack magic was the MINORITY of that display. The first three skills seemed to be status inflicts of some sort (I'm guessing the first was chainspell. I don't know what the second was, but the third was some sort of restorative buff, by the coloring.) Then we have three melee attacks. The gap close, the attack skill, and the Gap maker. Then we had all of one offensive magic cast, at the very end, which did not even seem to have a cast time.

For someone claiming to not be passing judgement, you are clearly jumping the gun, and jumping it hard.

Red Mage has always been the versatile combat mage who sports both magic and swords. It has never been exclusively a front-line entity, nor a back line entity and I can see the pains SE has taken to keep that true here. Yes, A Red Mage casts spells, even at a distance, even at close range. That's part of the Job's original allure. Please don't become so enamored with your own vision of Red Mage that you deny any other of yourself, other players, and most especially the developers.

Please, pack it in. It's waay too early to be this heated on it.

[Musashidon]

Please don't become so enamored with your own vision of Red Mage that you deny any other of yourself, other players, and most especially the developers.

the whole reason most debate happens is solely because of this reason.

people who say red mage is mainly magic with some physical or some who say red mage was more physical with some magic.

the person who he was talking to even said

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

kinda a shame to solely call out duelle and not the other person too.

[Hyrist]

kinda a shame to solely call out duelle and not the other person too.

There's a singular reason for my motivation on that.

Duelle and I have history. For years, he and I form different parts of the community, fought in the FFXI community to better Red Mage and have it added to the front lines of FFXI's scope of game. I understand, fully, where he individually is coming from as I have been there. I also agree with a lot of his sentimentality, but not the conclusion he draws from it. This is why I call out to him specifically as a peer.

I also do not wholly agree or disagree with Gemina's sentimentality. Historically she is correct, albeit she's depicting it a bit more black and white. It's arguable where the 'strongest of their abilities' is. A lot of Red Mage's magic assists physical (though not as a direct cast attack like sorcerer) Temper is a good example of this (though it was bugged in NES version.) as is Haste. And a Red Mage's weapon selection, in it's incarnations were just as powerful as their magical components, making their normal attacks on par with their magical influence, especially when you factor in that their magic assisted their melee.

This is why you can't take a hard line on the Job one way or another, in my humble opinion. And it's this approach that SE seems to reflect. I have a feeling I'm going to be quite pleased - at least that's my tentative impression. It's flatly not how I initially envisioned it, but that's ok. I always leave room in my expectations to be surprised.

[Duelle]

You've become far too hardline in this stance over time, and you're beginning to mar yourself and other proponents by doing so.

I speak for myself, and always aim to. Others who want certain things out of RDM are free and should disagree with me if they feel the need to.

First off, Red Mage was never swordsman first. In truth if we're speaking logicly, the casting has always taken the forefront of Red Mage, though always entangled and by a narrow margin. I'm not talking FFXI exclusively here, I'm talking through it's whole history.

Again, we have to keep in mind that nearly every iteration of RDM was in games built around turn-based combat. That's an entirely different animal from MMORPG/live-action combat in terms of design and application. Yes, in turn-based RPGs 9 times out of 10 the best way to use a RDM's turn was to have them cast magic.

That said, Melee is an inseparable part of the class and yes, the meta of FFXI did Red Mage a large disservice. But to stress, THIS IS NOT HAPPENING HERE. It was abundantly clear that a good portion of skill kit comes from adjusting the class's positioning. This would not be needed if it was primarily attacking only from range. To have both a closer, and a distance maker indicates that this class will be diving in and out of close range frequently. So both caster and melee will be important implementation.

I'll disagree. The demo emphasizes range while seemingly treating melee as a thing you do because mechanics rather than uniting both to flow into each other. If we had seen something like, say, melee combo going into insta-cast nuke followed by a hard cast spell followed by repelling shot followed by another spell or Lunge, that paints an entirely different picture (since it'd show that you'll be hitting things with a sword, it somehow allowing you to instacast spells while also having mobility built into the job).

And to be completely fair, attack magic was the MINORITY of that display. The first three skills seemed to be status inflicts of some sort (I'm guessing the first was chainspell. I don't know what the second was, but the third was some sort of restorative buff, by the coloring.) Then we have three melee attacks. The gap close, the attack skill, and the Gap maker. Then we had all of one offensive magic cast, at the very end, which did not even seem to have a cast time.

Based on the demo, I suspect what's going to happen is some aspect of the gameplay will require you to temporarily get in melee range to either empower future spells or make them cast instantly, then getting out of range to do so.

For someone claiming to not be passing judgement, you are clearly jumping the gun, and jumping it hard.

I like to think I'm allowed to develop an opinion based on what info we have available. I can still change my mind if something else surfaces or if I were to see the ability list along with what mechanics are part of the job. I did say that so far I was not impressed, and I'm sticking to that.

Red Mage has always been the versatile combat mage who sports both magic and swords. It has never been exclusively a front-line entity, nor a back line entity and I can see the pains SE has taken to keep that true here. Yes, A Red Mage casts spells, even at a distance, even at close range.

Simply put, the ranged/melee hybrid thing is needlessly convoluted. It's like they were reaching for something to make up, because a guy in melee range blasting fire into enemies' faces at point blank range in between sword swings was apparently not original enough for them.

As I've said, we'll see how this turns out, but I'd be lying if I claimed excitement about what has been shown so far. I still really want to see that ability list.

the whole reason most debate happens is solely because of this reason.

people who say red mage is mainly magic with some physical or some who say red mage was more physical with some magic.

To be fair, this discussion wouldn't be happening if we had specializations per job (instead we'd all be arguing to ensure both caster RDM and melee RDM are balanced with each other). Since we don't, we're obviously going to lean towards our preferences.