[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Carpe]

Thanks for making the system I have been trying to explain make sense, actually make sense.


http://i56.tinypic.com/15h0jt1.png

Heres a picture for you.

Thanks. I enjoyed your posts so far and I referenced them here. Hopefully we can get more people reading these and seeing that there's other options other than just getting rid of the openness of the armory system and reverting back to cookie-cutter classes.

[northernsky]

I like the idea.

I'm just curious of what would be the impact on playing the basic jobs.
More specifically, say your title is Paladin. Do you start PLD rank 1 and earn exclusively PLD skill points?

If those "titles" become the norm and the basic classes are just used to acquire abilities, will they be desirable in exp parties, missions, quests? We will still need to take them to a high level to get those stronger abilities but will they still be competitive at a comparable rank?

I'm not saying it could not work, I'm just curious

[Cairdeas]

As I understand the way Carpe described it. Jobs would be Titles that have a Job Level but it doesn't level up doing normal combat but instead things like party play, companies, etc would earn you Job Points which would grant you access to skills specific to that Job.

Essentially your Job Title and your Weapon Class would be similar to the Job/Subjob system but both are equals at defining your character as a whole instead of one being only half your strength.

Job > Learn Job Specific Skills
Weapon > Learn Generic Skills that define how you perform your Job Specific Skills.

I think. He can elaborate better then I.

[Carpe]

I like the idea.

I'm just curious of what would be the impact on playing the basic jobs.
More specifically, say your title is Paladin. Do you start PLD rank 1 and earn exclusively PLD skill points?

If those "titles" become the norm and the basic classes are just used to acquire abilities, will they be desirable in exp parties, missions, quests? We will still need to take them to a high level to get those stronger abilities but will they still be competitive at a comparable rank?

I'm not saying it could not work, I'm just curious

Once you unlock titles you will always have one equipped in addition to your weapon class. You never stop being a Gladiator if you are using swords, you just add a title on TOP of this that gives you access to you job-specific stuff (Like for DRK soul eater, last resort, ATK bonus). If you left your title as DRK and decided to switch weapon to say AXE you would effectively change from a DRK/GLA to a DRK/MRD, this would stop you from leveling up GLA in combat, but you would start leveling MRD is combat just like they way you switch your weapons now.

So you can't be a DRK (a title/job) without being also a GLA or a MRD (or some kind of weapon specialist). The title defines your "role" and the weapon defines your "weapon specialty"

You never stop leveling your weapon class that's equipped (as long as it isn't max level) since this is going to be the main source of your "general" "not-class-specific" spells and abilities, the spells and abilities that you can use between classes.

You could think of your character before unlocking a title as being like an "adventurer" in FFV when you were out fighting and leveling up but hadn't specified your job or role yet. Right now in FFXIV we are all like "adventurers".

Remember Titles and Weapon Class are on different planes. You can have a DRK be either a DRK/GLA or a DRK/MRD, but you cant have a GLA/MRD or a DRK/PLD.

So mixing a title with a weapon class further defines your playstyle. A BLM defines your role because you have access to certain abilities and traits that improve your ability to deal magic damage. Deciding to use CON or THM helps you define your playstyle/skill specialty.

CON specializes in spells that act instantly like CURE
THM specializes in spells that act over time like SACRIFICE

So a BLM/CON is specialist in instant magic damage
while a BLM/THM is a specialist in over-time magic damage.

It isn't really as clear-cut as that, but the general idea is that a BLM/CON is saying he wants to be a magic damage dealer that specializes in Conjury Skills while a BLM/THM is a magic damage dealer that wants to specialize in Thaumaturgy Skills.

[Cairdeas]

I'd still want to propose that we do not limit classes to only certain titles just so we can keep the ability to do anything available.

A Redmage being able to use Fist weapons, swords, conj, thaum, etc.

[lordpyriel]

I do like the idea behind this and would love to see something like it implemented. I would like to see more weapon types in game like a great sword, scythe, hell even a whip could be cool. maybe the "title" not have levels per se but points that can be use to get/buy "title" specific abilities/spells, etc.

All in all, I like the idea and would like to see something like it cause classes now have no role and were poorly thought out in my eyes tho I like the armory system and being able to pick different thing to put on say LNC.

[Carpe]

As I understand the way Carpe described it. Jobs would be Titles that have a Job Level but it doesn't level up doing normal combat but instead things like party play, companies, etc would earn you Job Points which would grant you access to skills specific to that Job.

As far as leveling up a title (which is seperate from your weapon class) I'd definitely like to see other's suggestions. I don't have anything clear cut in my mind how they could implement it, but the idea of incorporating into series of quests, repeatable leves and/or job marks, I like just for the fact that it opens doors to a whole ton of new content (and lore-driven) for us to experience. I also like the idea of being like an apprentice in training.

Essentially your Job Title and your Weapon Class would be similar to the Job/Subjob system but both are equals at defining your character as a whole instead of one being only half your strength.

Well put. This is essentially what I think would be the advantage of this type of system over the FFXI system while maintaining a similar feel of class specialization.

[Carpe]

I'd still want to propose that we do not limit classes to only certain titles just so we can keep the ability to do anything available.

A Redmage being able to use Fist weapons, swords, conj, thaum, etc.

Yep, the extended FAVOR attributes that I'm talking about wouldn't prevent this but encourage certain title to combine with certain weapon classes (because they would have a larger pool of favored skills to draw on). Also Red Mage is a class that traditionally would draw on many different disciplines so it would make sense that it would have spells and abilities that favor it across the board of weapon specialties. Reducing the effectiveness of skills that didn't belong to it's base weapon would mean that it would have a few of the 100% effective skills from its base weapon, but it could mix in a lot of 75% percent effective skills from other weapon classes. Limiting it to using mostly 75% percent skills would be one step to balance out a class that you would have to watch out for being too powerful. Obviously what I'm talking about is probably too simple for balancing purposes but it's a starting point to have an idea of how balancing could occur.

Also this doesn't mean that a RDM/CON will be as good at healing as a WHM/CON, because WHM will have some traits/passives that increase the effectiveness of it's healing spells, whereas RDM might have some traits that give minor reduction to it's stamina costs/or cast speed to balance the fact that it is probably using abilities from a big mix of weapon classes.

[northernsky]

Once you unlock titles you will always have one equipped in addition to your weapon class. You never stop being a Gladiator if you are using swords, you just add a title on TOP of this that gives you access to you job-specific stuff (Like for DRK soul eater, last resort, ATK bonus).

So you can't be a DRK without being also a GLA or a MRD. The title defines your "role" and the weapon defines your "weapon specialty"

Great. Thanks for replying.

So that brings my next question (not trying to be picky, I'm asking because I have thought a lot about this too and this is more complicated than it seems)

So my MRD is rank 50, my GLD is 20. Can I be either a DRK 50 or 20 depending on what weapon I am using?

Or under this system, should we trash the class rank and rely solely on the physical level, like in FFTactics? There are still some ranks but they do not determine your stats, they determine what type of abilities you have access to, basically.

[northernsky]

As far as leveling up a title (which is seperate for your weapon class) I'd definitely like to see other's suggestions. I don't have anything clear cut in my mind how they could implement it, but the idea of incorporating into series of quests, repeatable leves and/or job marks, I like just for the fact that it opens doors to a whole ton of new content (and lore-driven) for us to experience. I also like the idea of being like an apprentice in training.

If stats like HP, MP, or attributes are not linked to the rank of your title, but to the rank of your class of your phys, maybe there could be several title tiers which you need to grind through but you have to do a specific quest to unlock the next level.

For example, you need 100k dragoon skill points (earned in the same way as class skill points) to activate the dragoon rank 2, or elite dragoon, or whatever it's called. At 100k, you trigger a quest that unlocks your elite dragoon, which has an added set of abilities and traits (like the ability to summon your wyvern). Then you need 500k dragoon sp for the next level etc.

Just an idea