Have we moved to an age where taking hate as a dps = bad dps instead of bad tank?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Ew, it really drives me nuts whenever I see tanks not using their stances during dungeons, which is something I rarely see. But, almost everything since 3.0 has been seriously messy.

I agree, it drives me nuts when I see a healer in cleric stance and spamming dps spells when people be taking damage.

[Inosaska]

I remember back in the day when someone choose to be tank because they want to protect the party from damage knowing full well they're just a punching bag for the enemy. I wonder if the combat overhaul they're planning on doing fixes this issue where people are playing tanks think they can DPS when playing a role that's about keeping hate off your party members.

[Geist]

I remember back in the day when someone choose to be tank because they want to protect the party from damage knowing full well they're just a punching bag for the enemy. I wonder if the combat overhaul they're planning on doing fixes this issue where people are playing tanks think they can DPS when playing a role that's about keeping hate off your party members.

Let's wait and see. I think the onus falls on both roles, though the tank should always provide the DPS with the necessary cues and attempt to achieve a viable combination (target positioning, pacing, and damage mitigation) the party can benefit from. At the same time, when playing as DPS we need to make our big numbers count: not just in terms of sheer damage being dished out, but also of impact and usefulness in that specific situation.

[Lambdafish]

I remember back in the day when someone choose to be tank because they want to protect the party from damage knowing full well they're just a punching bag for the enemy. I wonder if the combat overhaul they're planning on doing fixes this issue where people are playing tanks think they can DPS when playing a role that's about keeping hate off your party members.

Except this will never be the case in a game that revolves around having two tanks, as only one tank can be on the boss at a time. They can't change the way things are from the job side, rather there needs to be far more for an OT to do other than DPS. (Also the difference in how much you get hit, and how much enmity is generated needs to be more extreme than it currently is in DPS stance.)

[Ilan]

I remember back in the day when someone choose to be tank because they want to protect the party from damage knowing full well they're just a punching bag for the enemy. I wonder if the combat overhaul they're planning on doing fixes this issue where people are playing tanks think they can DPS when playing a role that's about keeping hate off your party members.

I remember back in the day where dpses were able to use all of their skills and not only a few. Tanks are there to keep the hits in their face, what they are doing anyway, there is no reason for a lazy dps to make his life more miserable as it already is. And just for your information: A higher overall dps is also a mitigation because the boss dies faster and the party takes less dmg overall. Guess what, that works with good dps players because they keep track of their hate and use their skills properly...

And as soon as dps players are really capable of dealing dps, the tanks can stop dealing dps if SE doesn't patch hard dps checks into content, that most players who complain about dpsing tanks will never see.

[MoarLegion]

Here's a tank's stance on this.

Enmity is everybody's job, but the balance is slightly skewed, say 80/20 Tank/DPS. Yes, its my job to generate and keep hate, but its your job to drop hate where you can. Ask yourself a simple question: When is having MORE enmity as a dps/healer ever a good thing? It creates an artificial cap on your overall potential. Quelling/Smoke/Elusive are raid DPS boosts, because it allows the tank to spend more time out of tank stance and allows DPS to keep going ham sandwich.

Consider it this way: You getting rid of something you don't want, gives me more of something I do want. Be nice to your tanks, they keep you from going squish.

These things said, if you're using hate reducing skills and still pulling off the tank, the tank is doing it wrong. I have more enmity generation than you do enmity reduction, and the onus is upon me to generate more than you can reduce. However, consider the investment for your hate management compared to mine.

BLM/SMN/BRD/MCH/NIN/DRG: Use a oGCD that in no way negatively effects your output. (For the DRG's complaining about Elusive, you can use it right before the boss jumps, or during phases where the boss is effectively immune. ((A9S after Faust dies but before he is melted, A10s during Spin to Win after the add is dead, A11S before limit cut.)

Investment in generating more hate as a tank:
-DRK: Grit costs 1.3k MP(75% of a dark arts), eats a GCD, reduces our damage by 20%, locks Blood weapon(less dark arts) and our enmity combo generates no MP(less dark arts).
-PLD: Eats a GCD, reduces damage by 15%, no Sword Oath double AA, and Rage of Halone is 90 potency loss over Royal Authority.
-WAR: 20% less DPS, locks Fell Cleave, but not a lot of downsides here.

Because of the DPS meta and benefits that high DPS brings(shorter fights and less mechanics), optimizing DPS output between mechanics is a major boon to clearing content, and all party members are responsible for that. There is zero DPS loss for popping quelling/smoke/elusive, there is a major DPS loss for going into tank stance and using enmity combos. Its the Tank's job to stay over DPS, but DPS have no excuse to not make it easier.

[Khalithar]

I've been thinking about this lately and I don't necessarily think that either one is really bad. The reason why I say that is because I've been getting some very geared and very skilled dps in the DF lately that generate crazy amounts of enmity even when I'm doing everything I possibly can. Like I'm not kidding when I say I had a blm/mnk in gubal hard with around 22k-23k hp each and their damage was ridiculous, I'm not exaggerating when I say they managed to kill the final boss before the behemoth popped. Even doing everything I possibly could to generate enmity in tank stance they were still starting to catch up to me but the boss died before it reached the point where they could pass me. But I'll admit that this is the exception rather than the rule.

[Jim_Berry]

The point is valid if you could have used quelling strikes /shade walker to reduce your hate and for some reason didn't.

Which is something I know a lot of dps don't do. Because there seems to be a common belief that if they use quelling strikes /shade walker and end up 5th in the enmity list then people assume there dps is terrible and thus seems a lot of players never use them because being number 2 apparantly means "best dps".

The issue really is the game is also so heavily focused on dps that nothing else matters.
As a result If the tank has to go into tank stance because you wont use quelling / shade. "OMG dps loss...." this party is terrible.
If a ninja can just shadewalker the tank instead. or the blm uses quelling strikes then the tank can stay in dps and Woot! No DPS loss and everyone's happy

OMG..... Thank you for saying this!!!!!!

[Jim_Berry]

Overall, I'm one of those calm and relaxed tanks that generally try to keep hate established towards me at all times. Even if the DPS like to run ahead and pull (although I have not been giving them a reason to), that's nothing that a simple Provoke can't handle. I rarely have DPS pull hate off me unless I'm being careless, like spamming Dark Arts + Souleater without Grit and not sneaking in a Power Slash combo at least once.

[Jim_Berry]

Well, there's a lot of case where I'm forced to use my elusive jump as a DRG when I shouldn't even need to do it.
If the tank is bad or unstuff (or anything else) and you have a spell that can help then you should use it.

A sad think actually is that ppl often butthurt when you try to highlight something they might be doing wrong while they should take it in a good way and at least try to improve.

Depends! Let's take me for example:

I was NIN main since it released. I never looked at guides or anything. Learned off trial and error. As a PLD and DRK, I went the extra mile of learning the jobs each level. My NIN is bad because of my lack of learning it the correct way. When people use to say how bad my NIN is, yes, I was bothered because I thought I had learned it well. If people say something about my tanks, I take it as positive feedback based on what was said.

If someone was to say, "Your tank is shit if you can't hold hate without Tank Stance.", I shrug it off and stay in Tank Stance just to annoy them. If someone was to say, "Do you know you can do a bit more dps without Tank Stance?", I'll just show them that I can and go DPS Stance.

At the end of the day, I don't need to prove anything to anyone other than my Raid group.