Tomes vs random drops

[Nezerius]

Looking at competitors, as mentioned previously, WoW has the highest subscriber rate of any MMO consistently and substantially for 12 years straight, and WoW uses a random stat system. This suggests that the success of an MMO is not dependent on using a tomestone system.

It also suggests that the success isn't dependent on a random stat/drop system. Since WoW got released at the right time, just as MMOs became popular, and gained a huge loyal fanbase because of it (just look at the milions who stayed subscribed in Warlords of Draenor, its worst expansion to date).

Do you mean random drop, or random stat system? The amount of items that actually use the <Random Enchantment> tag are a minority. In Legion, that accounts to the crafted gear, and trinkets from world quests. Everything else already has set stats, with the only difference being whether you get warforged/titanforged or a gem socket. Warforged/titanforged doesn't randomize the stats, it just increases the amount due to higher iLvl, while a gem socket is similar to materia melding.
There's also tertiary stats that may appear on an item, but those honestly don't really have much of an effect, unless you happen to stack a ton of a specific tertiary stat.

Comparing content that can be queued for (heroic dungeons in WoW, expert dungeons in XIV), they're really not all that different. The heroic dungeons in WoW drops gear that may get warforged/titanforged, but the base iLvl is easily overgeared through the world quest system (And I'd argue that unless you get a high titanforged proc, it's still likely to not be an upgrade). Similarly, XIV expert dungeons drop gear that people often already overgear, with the other reward being tomestones that can be used for upgrades. Alexander Normal can be compared to WoW LFR in a similar way, though I'd say it favors Alexander in that regard.

There's also mythic dungeons in WoW, but those can't be queued for, and XIV doesn't have any light party content that can be compared to it.

Additionally, the random legendary system in Legion is probably the expansion's most hated feature.

[Kaurie]

It also suggests that the success isn't dependent on a random stat/drop system. Since WoW got released at the right time, just as MMOs became popular, and gained a huge loyal fanbase . because of it (just look at the milions who stayed subscribed in Warlords of Draenor, its worst expansion to date).

Indeed, I did not draw that conclusion that it is dependent on a random stat/drop system. FFXIV is successful, and does not have this system. The point is that the success of an MMO is not dependent on these systems, and that implementing either is not going to cause the game to fail.

Do you mean random drop, or random stat system? The amount of items that actually use the <Random Enchantment> tag are a minority. In Legion, that accounts to the crafted gear, and trinkets from world quests. Everything else already has set stats, with the only difference being whether you get warforged/titanforged or a gem socket. Warforged/titanforged doesn't randomize the stats, it just increases the amount due to higher iLvl, while a gem socket is similar to materia melding.
There's also tertiary stats that may appear on an item, but those honestly don't really have much of an effect, unless you happen to stack a ton of a specific tertiary stat.

I mean both, to be honest. My understanding is that gear in dungeons (mythic+ included) also has random stats, but maybe I am mistaken. Even without random secondary stats, there are just more horizontal options available to obtain the secondary stat structure you want in WoW.

Comparing content that can be queued for (heroic dungeons in WoW, expert dungeons in XIV), they're really not all that different. The heroic dungeons in WoW drops gear that may get warforged/titanforged, but the base iLvl is easily overgeared through the world quest system (And I'd argue that unless you get a high titanforged proc, it's still likely to not be an upgrade). Similarly, XIV expert dungeons drop gear that people often already overgear, with the other reward being tomestones that can be used for upgrades. Alexander Normal can be compared to WoW LFR in a similar way, though I'd say it favors Alexander in that regard.

There's also mythic dungeons in WoW, but those can't be queued for, and XIV doesn't have any light party content that can be compared to it.

You can obtain legendary items and very high level items through titanforged in Heroic dungeons in WoW. Then there is also Mythic+ which can drop raid level gear; unfortunately, there is no real comparison here.

Additionally, the random legendary system in Legion is probably the expansion's most hated feature.

Some people hate it, but I don't think we have actual data to confirm this. Personally, I really like the feature. I don't go around exclaiming it though. The negative voices are always the loudest

[Nezerius]

I mean both, to be honest. My understanding is that gear in dungeons (mythic+ included) also has random stats, but maybe I am mistaken. Even without random secondary stats, there are just more horizontal options available to obtain the secondary stat structure you want in WoW.

Incorrect, the dungeons have set loot tables, with set stats. The Grand Challenger's Bounty (item reward based on the highest mythic+ cleared of the previous week) also takes from the dungeon loot tables, and doesn't have random stats.

You can obtain legendary items and very high level items through titanforged in Heroic dungeons in WoW. Then there is also Mythic+ which can drop raid level gear; unfortunately, there is no real comparison here.

I mentioned titanforged as well, but you'd have to be extremely lucky to get an upgrade that way. Titanforged shows up when an item gets a +15 ilvl bonus (base heroic iLvl 825 + 15, so i840) after that, the loot system keeps doing internal rolls for additional +5 ilvl upgrade steps. The total titanforged upgrade depending on how many of those rolls succeed. It requires a lot of luck to get something like i880 from a heroic. As for legendaries, they can drop from nearly any content in Legion.

Some people hate it, but I don't think we have actual data to confirm this. Personally, I really like the feature. I don't go around exclaiming it though. The negative voices are always the loudest

The ones who enjoy the feature are often the ones who got the right legendary as their first or second drop. The ones who hate it often do so because they've gotten a shit one, or none at all (like Prydaz or Sephuz).

But when it comes to tomes vs. random drops, the only way I could see it done through the dungeon system, is when SE decides to create a system similar to the mythic dungeons in WoW. Dungeons that are more difficult to clear, but also give decent gear drops as reward. There'd probably be a lot of complaints by not including it as a solo-queue in the Duty Finder (see PotD 101-200), but I think the cross-server Party Finder will be sufficient to gather parties for it.

[Kaurie]

Incorrect, the dungeons have set loot tables, with set stats. The Grand Challenger's Bounty (item reward based on the highest mythic+ cleared) also takes from the dungeon loot tables, and doesn't have random stats.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I was confused, due to the plethora of different gear with various stats of the same ilvl that it appeared they were randomized.

I mentioned titanforged as well, but you'd have to be extremely lucky to get an upgrade that way. Titanforged shows up when an item gets a +15 ilvl bonus (base heroic iLvl 825 + 15, so i840) after that, the loot system keeps doing internal rolls for additional +5 ilvl upgrade steps. The total titanforged upgrade depending on how many of those rolls succeed. It requires a lot of luck to get something like i880 from a heroic. As for legendaries, they can drop from nearly any content in Legion.

I definitely understand, but I like that there is that random chance to obtain a higher quality item. I am only 840 and 849, so even obtaining items in that range is useful for me at the moment. I understand that once you have raid gear, the drops in heroic would be less useful. It's very different form here though, where the drops are useful if you are in gear dated 18 months ago. However, as long as you have obtained gear in the past 12 months, expert drops are completely pointless.

The ones who enjoy the feature are often the ones who got the right legendary as their first or second drop. The ones who hate it often do so because they've gotten a shit one, or none at all (like Prydaz or Sephuz).

That is possible. I have yet to receive one, and I still like the system, however.