Your reaction if SE adds in a Passive Ability to Mobs...

[Shurrikhan]

Neither of which were very popular. Pharos had to get nerfed because people whined about having to deal with mechanics, and Arboretum, while beautiful, was also largely hated. As much as I'd adore having fun actually dangerous dungeons, I know it'll never happen with the speedrun crowd calling the shots.

As long as the rewards are proportionate, I doubt speedrunners would complain about added difficulty or duration to dungeons. The main issue for them, as far as I can tell, is that they'd like to spend the least time possible in boring content, especially when its arbitrarily necessitated (by tome gear) for "real" content. Make the dungeons themselves less dull, and you might not have any issue in the first place, especially if it requires fewer runs (no additional minutes) spent in dungeons per week.

Why do people assume that because people go about things efficiently, that they must only want brain-dead content for anything outside of the most recent savage raid?

[JunseiKei]

Neither of which were very popular. Pharos had to get nerfed because people whined about having to deal with mechanics, and Arboretum, while beautiful, was also largely hated. As much as I'd adore having fun actually dangerous dungeons, I know it'll never happen with the speedrun crowd calling the shots.

Yeah, pretty much this. Any time mobs get mechanics, they get figured out how to get cheesed or enough complaining is done that they were done away with to some degree. Oddly enough, I don't really recall the speedrunners calling for the nerfs so much as the people that simply couldn't handle the mechanics. Mostly, the speedrunners complain about there being gates and forced stops or them having to deal with people that simply don't want to even try to pick up the pace a little more. Generally speaking, if you're speedrunning, you know your class well enough to get large pulls done and can handle movement and mechanics that both of those instances demanded....

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

. Why do people assume that because people go about things efficiently, that they must only want brain-dead content for anything outside of the most recent savage raid?

The majority of the replies in this thread are about a desire to keep the dungeons as braindead easy as they are now, rather than trying to shake up the formula. Not hard to see.

[JunseiKei]

The majority of the replies in this thread are about a desire to keep the dungeons as braindead easy as they are now, rather than trying to shake up the formula. Not hard to see.

Actually, I think there needs to be a clarification added to this idea. One that popped up in my mind thanks to your statement.

I don't mind dungeons that will appear in roulette being braindead [read: mostly devoid of mobs having abilities for the sake of making large pulls increasingly difficult] for the sake of efficiency. I would want to see more mob mechanics in places of Palace of the Dead, which is a dungeon and does shake up the formula with what it has to offer. I wouldn't mind see such mechanics in places like the Diadem. Basically, for dungeons that will be used to farm large amounts of tomestones, for items like relic and their quests, I see no reason to make it increasingly frustrating.

[Shurrikhan]

Basically, for dungeons that will be used to farm large amounts of tomestones, for items like relic and their quests, I see no reason to make it increasingly frustrating.

See, this I still don't understand. SE is free to adjust the rewards however they please. If a dungeon is made more complicated such that it is expected to take 30% longer, they can adjust the rewords by 30% in turn. The only two things that are actually 'set in stone' are that there will be a larger slot of time required to run it, and that there is a chance that the added complexity will give a different, be that larger or smaller, bonus to people who play efficiently than current speedrunning tactics alone did in previous, more brain-dead dungeons. At worst, that portion increases, and people are more incentivized to find good groups to farm with -- which they'd do anyways any time they're actually 'farming' tomes.

[VirusChris]

This... this is STILL going?! o_0
I honestly thought it would be over and done with back around page 3 or 4. I'm shocked to see people still discussing it. It was meant to be a simple question to response to with some interesting insight about such a feature. Well I'm glad to read your posts nonetheless.

I thought on this topic a bit more and I was reminded of what they did in WoW's Cataclysm expansion so I decided to expand on my previous post in this topic. In the expansion prior to that (Wrath of the Lich King), a moderately geared tank could pull an entire dungeon in roughly 2-3 trash pulls and by the end of it with the right gear I could pull an entire dungeon's worth of trash in 1-2 pulls and be in absolutely no danger of dying whatsoever. 8-10 minute dungeon runs were quite entertaining. In Cataclysm they dialed it back and made dungeons difficult again. They made individual enemies more dangerous, upped their damage, added priority targets that needed to be controlled and/or killed immediately, and spaced the pulls in such a way where in a few places you had to be careful since 2 groups of enemies meant death.

However, as you geared up through the raid content you sort of "graduated" out of needing to use crowd control and could just pump raw damage and aoe in to a group and even pull 2-3 groups at a time. I would be perfectly fine with the Cataclysm model, make the new dungeons legitimately challenging and dangerous but over time gearing up would make it easier to the point that once you did have that gear, you wouldn't need to be as careful. It's an interesting feeling when you can say "wow, I remember when this stuff would destroy me if I wasn't careful. I've really gotten stronger gearing up over time!"

Ooh! I like this system... I wouldn't mind FFXIV adopting this a bit.

I kinda wish the level and item level sync was changed up a bit... allow us to use all of our skills, but doing low-level dungeons with the sync on reduces their damage output. I feel like re-learning or forcing to hold back on older dungeons with the level sync feature... it's fine at first, but locking out my skills and rotation gets increasingly annoying over time.

Everyone else has gotten some interesting ideas as well. Though honestly I wasn't expecting such novelties thrown in here. I'm pleasantly surprised.

[JunseiKei]

See, this I still don't understand. SE is free to adjust the rewards however they please. If a dungeon is made more complicated such that it is expected to take 30% longer, they can adjust the rewords by 30% in turn. The only two things that are actually 'set in stone' are that there will be a larger slot of time required to run it, and that there is a chance that the added complexity will give a different, be that larger or smaller, bonus to people who play efficiently than current speedrunning tactics alone did in previous, more brain-dead dungeons. At worst, that portion increases, and people are more incentivized to find good groups to farm with -- which they'd do anyways any time they're actually 'farming' tomes.

They could, but SE likes gating relic behind crafting, large tomestone farming and additional items that may, or may not, require even more tomestone farming. When you're forced to farm something like 24,000 tomestones, you stop caring about anything other than efficiency and speed. (I think that is the tomestone requirement for umbrite on relic, assuming you did not receive any bonuses for treating the sand. Think my math was right....) With no bonuses, that's something like 160 ARF runs (which I believe is the most efficient dungeon to run for tomestones). At 30% reward increase with dealing with mechanics, that doesn't sound too appealing.... that's still something like 120 runs that may double the time it previously took (assuming said dungeon had the same reward amount as ARF with a 30% increase). As it has been pointed out, there are people that simply want to take their time, others don't do things efficiently, others completely ignore mechanics; throwing in something like that doesn't mean it will only take 30% more time.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

So, you put in dungeons that are more challenging on a basis besides, 'but muh Aoes,' and suddenly you could very well see the general skill level of the player base start to rise. Keeping things braindead as is will only encourage people to stagnate.

I kinda wonder if you are truly doing your optimum DPS with that macro.

The alternative means I fall asleep with one hand on my controller mashing the one AoE. Considering that for AoE, all I need to do is use X(Hot Shot), []( Reload), Tri(Quick Reload) and O (Spread Shot), I would still have to have another screen open to actually stay awake. And of all my jobs, MCH has the 'most complex' AoE rotation to be aware of.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Neither of which were very popular. Pharos had to get nerfed because people whined about having to deal with mechanics, and Arboretum, while beautiful, was also largely hated. As much as I'd adore having fun actually dangerous dungeons, I know it'll never happen with the speedrun crowd calling the shots.

Pharos was nerfed because it was harder than the other dungeons in the roulette and people were purposely not unlocking Pharos in order to keep it out of the roulette. Not to mention the rewards in Pharos were identical to the other dungeons, so people always chose the easier path.

[JunseiKei]

So, you put in dungeons that are more challenging on a basis besides, 'but muh Aoes,' and suddenly you could very well see the general skill level of the player base start to rise. Keeping things braindead as is will only encourage people to stagnate.

People will stagnate because they want to. There have been plenty of people across various threads that have said if the game forces me to get better, I will seek another game. In the end, you'd be more or less hurting only those that want efficiency.