Monk in the "Savage" community

[echo78]

People acting like the job they play is holding them back somehow.

PLD, WHM, and MNK clear content just fine. Yea, they're not ideal for world-class speed-runs. How many people crying in this topic play at that level?

How many of these people cared about sidelined DRGs / NINs during early A8S prog when traited Mantra was extremely helpful?

DRG and NIN weren't sidelined. World second and world third A8S used DRG/NIN without a MNK. The world third even used an AST. Its literally been proven mantra was never needed in early A8S progression. The world first having a MNK didn't change DRG/NIN being the more popular combination in A8S. MNK also got destroyed by DRG/NIN in early clear rates on FFlogs for creator. The first week DRG had 10x more clears then MNK (and MNK hasn't caught up since then. 1153 A12S DRG clears vs 635 for MNK). MNK is a useless job right now and the only reason to use one is if you can't find a more skilled DRG/NIN for your static.

[Brian_]

I mean, I understand that it doesn't make or break the run. The point is it's completely desired over a bit more extra healing. If you could choose more heals that aren't actually needed over a party wide damage buff, anyone would choose the latter.

This is the bottom line:

Both have value in progression, neither is needed to clear, and both are pointless after clearing.

At the end of the day, unless your goal is to produce an inflated parse or faster clear time purely for bragging purposes (that most educated people will see as BS when they check your balance up-time), it doesn't matter what you pick.

And, speed-runs have value because they test your ability to adapt, optimize and play to perfection. Not because of the resulting parse you post to fflogs. For the actual purpose of a speed-run, which is to push yourself as a player and push the job / comp you are playing to its limit, it doesn't matter if you bring WHM or AST.

[Brian_]

DRG and NIN weren't sidelined. World second and world third A8S used DRG/NIN without a MNK. The world third even used an AST. Its literally been proven mantra was never needed in early A8S progression. The world first having a MNK didn't change DRG/NIN being the more popular combination in A8S. MNK also got destroyed by DRG/NIN in early clear rates on FFlogs for creator. The first week DRG had 10x more clears then MNK (and MNK hasn't caught up since then. 1153 A12S DRG clears vs 635 for MNK). MNK is a useless job right now and the only reason to use one is if you can't find a more skilled DRG/NIN for your static.

And it was also proven that the DPS boost from NIN / DRG was never needed in early A8S progression or A12S progression for that matter. If MNK is a useless job based on necessity then so are DRG and NIN.

[echo78]

And it was also proven that the DPS boost from NIN / DRG was never needed in early A8S progression or A12S progression for that matter. If MNK is a useless job based on necessity then so are DRG and NIN.

What? More DPS = push phases, skip mechanics, kill things faster. All of creator savage is proof of this. Skipping most of A9S, tank busters and many mechanics in A10S, limit cuts/optical sights/lapis in A11S and the "earthshaker" voids in A12S. More DPS is the opposite of useless. It makes fights easier.

There is a difference between "viable" and "optimal" and MNK isn't close to DRG/NIN right now.

[Brian_]

What? More DPS = push phases, skip mechanics, kill things faster. All of creator savage is proof of this. Skipping most of A9S, tank busters and many mechanics in A10S, limit cuts/optical sights/lapis in A11S and the "earthshaker" voids in A12S. More DPS is the opposite of useless. It makes fights easier.

There is a difference between "viable" and "optimal" and MNK isn't close to DRG/NIN right now.

And none of that is needed. There is a difference between "necessary" and "preferred" as well as "useless" and "suboptimal."

[echo78]

If you enjoy having less DPS and having to do mechanics that could have been skipped, feel free to. There isn't a single fight in the game where monk is useful compared to DRG/NIN. That literally makes monk useless. You can use a PLD in A12S but why would you want to when DRK is superior? Because you like PLD more? That's fine but you are making the fight harder by playing PLD. The same thing applies to MNK vs DRG/NIN in every fight.

[Brian_]

But you clearly still play monk and your static skill cleared all the current content with you. So, clearly, for both you and your static, monk was quite useful. Was it harder? I'm sure you'll say yes. But, it clearly wasn't a disadvantage large enough to stop you or your teammates.

I'm also pretty sure that if you decided on finding a new static to join as a monk, you wouldn't have any issues.

So, after clearing, what more is there? If this game really rewarded optimized play or required it like back in Gordias, I wouldn't just be on your side of this argument, I'd be actively trying to convert dissenters. Nothing requiring the min-maxing of early-prog A3S exists anymore. Nothing gating a specific job out of their clear for 4 more weeks like A4S exists anymore.

Again, the reality is all the extra DPS is useful for is farming and fflogs. There really weren't any significant phase skips that were necessary or even particularly meaningful in early Creator prog that a MNK comp couldn't achieve. For the people who still haven't cleared A12S or can't find statics, monk is one of the last things they should be blaming.

[CookieMonsta]

And it was also proven that the DPS boost from NIN / DRG.

In fact, iirc PLD + MNk was preferred in a8s cuz it was safer with super mantra and the fact you could shelltron the punches.

[randysquirrel]

dragoon players had to deal with ridicule and mockery for a long time

as it should, and will always, be

I used to love reminding our drg that my culinarian had a higher mDEF than him

[Exiled_Tonberry]

@Brian: I think you're underestimating how much phase skips help, now and during progression.

For instance with an optimal party, you can kill the A9 boss nearly before Faust drops, and Faust himself can be killed on the first platform that's going up in lava for a quick return to the boss.

Without an AST/Ninja/ Dragoon comp, you're greatly reducing the chances of skipping these phases, and what are you getting in return? Mantra, that we by no means even slightly need? Dragon Kick?

The problem with these type of defensive tools is that once you're past the point of needing it, it's 100% useless, while dps utility only gets better as gear gets better.