Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Reynhart]

Brian_ mentioned that. Either you were too blind or just simply didn't want to acknowledge it.

Yes, he made a great speech about what he thinks could be a problem. The thing is, in the end it wouldn't change much. He makes it sound real important that you "suddenly have 5 DPS"...when in fact, it's just one DPS and one tank that you have to balance against a tank duo. As for piercing debuff or hypercharge...you can already have DRG+BRD+MCH or MCH/BRD+BLM+SMN, this wouldn't be new at all, and wouldn't have that much issue. Especially since DPS are on their own adjusted between their DPS and raid utiliy, and that solo-heal/solo-tank are still a thing that people do.

Instead of that, we have three tanks that are pushed exactly the same way, who will keep being eithered imbalanced or just copy-paste of each other. If you only push them in one direction, you can't have all of them be equally effective. And you'll still piss off one part of your playerbase, and probably not a small one...

[Brian_]

Yes, he made a great speech about what he thinks could be a problem. The thing is, in the end it wouldn't change much. He makes it sound real important that you "suddenly have 5 DPS"...when in fact, it's just one DPS and one tank that you have to balance against a tank duo. As for piercing debuff or hypercharge...you can already have DRG+BRD+MCH or MCH/BRD+BLM+SMN, this wouldn't be new at all, and wouldn't have that much issue. Especially since DPS are on their own adjusted between their DPS and raid utiliy, and that solo-heal/solo-tank are still a thing that people do.

You don't have a clue about what you're talking about. DRG + BRD + MCH doesn't happen now because it's a bad comp. You either sacrifice your caster or you sacrifice a melee DPS. If you sacrifice your caster... why are you bringing BRD? The entire point of bringing BRD is for foes. If you are sacrificing your melee DPS, it's likely a NIN and that's a huge DPS and utility loss. BRD + BLM + SMN also doesn't happen now because it's a bad comp. You have to pick between NIN, which will cost you your piercing debuff and BL, or DRG, which will cost you enmity manipulation and trick attack. Also, both comps pigeon hole you into DRK so R.I.PLD. But, when you add 1 DPS onto those comps, suddenly they change completely. You can now bring a double caster BRD comp with DRG AND NIN for full synergy. You can now bring MCH + BRD without sacrificing your caster or melee DPS. You do realize that when you add 1 DPS to skills like hypercharge, foes, BL and trick attack that scale per party member, you're boosting their effectiveness by a multiplier because they are hitting another DPS instead of a tank or a healer.

So yea, to a simpleton it's 1 DPS. To someone who actually understands job synergy and DPS optimization, it means way more. You reference solo-heal and solo-tank fights. Have you ever watched or really analyzed those videos? Because they truly bring your foolishness to light. The A12S AST solo-heal was only possible because the 5 DPS comp had a BRD constantly feeding the AST MP and the extra DPS was enough to push DPS enough to avoid a lot of damage. 1 extra DPS was the difference that enabled AST solo-heal. And, so much for DPS being on their own when your raid DPS has a real impact on damage taken and healing needed. And, a ton of these solo-tank videos have absurd DPS gains -- way more DPS than you'd gain using your simpleton math. Why? Job synergy.

We know for a fact that solo-healer and/or solo-tank comps will not be balanced. That's inarguable. So, again, it's going to take a lot of tuning and tweaking both for jobs and for content to achieve a reasonable balance. The still flawed balanced between jobs we have now took SE an entire expansion to achieve. Just let that sink in.

[aleph_null]

I think the a9s faust fight is a good example where you can see what Brian mentioned about having extra dps instead of another tank/healer since the fight is rather short, so the differences will be more pronounced. You can check some of the fastest clears on fflogs and see their dps compared to the traditional 2/2/4 compositions comprising (mostly) the same people.

These two are some of such logs that I recently reviewed (to improve my own group's performance in the same fight):

DRK/WAR, AST/SCH, DRG/NIN/BRD/SMN, 0:56 kill time, 21,495.6 party dps, 18 Nov.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/hACX8...pe=damage-done

DRK/WAR, AST, DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH/SMN, 0:46 kill time, 26,195.6 party dps, 10 Nov.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/nGAMa...pe=damage-done

That's a 4.7k raid dps difference JUST by swapping a SCH for a MCH, while the other 7 members are the same, also note that the 2/2/4 log was posted slightly more than a week later than the 2/1/5 log, so their gears should be relatively similar. I know it's not exactly the best example for our discussion since we're talking about 1/2/5 vs 2/2/4 compositions, but this at least shows that adding 1 extra dps matters a lot when you optimize your group composition. Sadly I can't seem to find a solo tank log that has 2 healers, all of them seem to have 1 tank and 1 healer.

[Reynhart]

I know it's not exactly the best example for our discussion since we're talking about 1/2/5 vs 2/2/4 compositions, but this at least shows that adding 1 extra dps matters a lot when you optimize your group composition.

This still wouldn't be the best example to use the current raid design with the current tanks to state what could or couldn't be done.

Besides, on such short fights, the difference is less "pronounced" that "virtually inflated". In the 46s kill time, you almost has 50% uptime for Hypercharge, of course it would have a tremendous effect. It's like doing a 30s parse on a triple Fell Cleave opener to claim WAR can top even the most powerfull and skilled DPS. For the record, how did those two groups do on the actual boss ?

[aleph_null]

This still wouldn't be the best example to use the current raid design with the current tanks to state what could or couldn't be done.

I just gave the example above to show that adding one extra dps matters a lot for your raid dps due to job synergies and raidwide dps boosts. Balancing a tank (or healer) that's "designed" to be able to solo tank (or heal) contents meant for two tanks (or healers) is NOT as simple as balancing 1 dps + 1 tank vs 2 tanks (or 1 dps + 1 healer vs 2 healers) like you said earlier in this thread:

He makes it sound real important that you "suddenly have 5 DPS"...when in fact, it's just one DPS and one tank that you have to balance against a tank duo.

So yeah, "suddenly having 5 dps instead of 4" is a real big deal, since the raid dps difference is actually more/comparable to the dps of some of the best dps players out there... unless maybe you expect them to massively nerf raid buffs and job synergies in the next expansion (not impossible, who knows?).


As for your next question,

For the record, how did those two groups do on the actual boss ?

I can't find their logs on a9s boss with a solo healer composition. I know it's possible to solo heal that fight (and also solo tank, I've seen it a while ago on reddit), but considering that the fastest clears of a9s boss all have the traditional 2/2/4 composition, I guess solo tanking/healing refurbisher is just not the most efficient way to clear it (cmiiw, maybe someone more knowledgeable about this can elaborate).

[Brian_]

This still wouldn't be the best example to use the current raid design with the current tanks to state what could or couldn't be done.

Well at least now you are just admitting your argument has no intellectual honesty and that we can just throw your idea in the trash can.

So what? Instead, we should just base everything off of absolutely nothing? Just completely make everything up? And trust that it will work? Basically re-balance all the jobs and re-design all the content because of your vision of what a tank should be?

Like I said, incredibly dishonest, selfish, and ignorant. The support for your argument is based on dismissing everything we know about the game, its developer, and its players and replacing it with your imagination.

If you want the game to be a different game, you should just go play a different game.

[Sarcatica]

I did solo heal for a9s before. Both MT and single healer seemingly struggled to do more dps. I was using PLD back then and I felt that I had to switch on ShO more. WAR can do close to a DPS range in a9s due to the aoe, so there is no question on that. The main issue is the correlation of MT and the healer(s) total DPS. The fastest a9s should still be 3:17 from Rushers and they do normal comp for that fyi.

I have a feeling that DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH is currently the best DPS comp for Creator to play with mostly because all of them synergize well as a group. The reported fastest a12s is below 9mins and that comp highlights killing alex prime before last phase began.

Link: https://youtu.be/vXubi1TSXqI

Currently MNK, PLD and WHM are not included in top speedruns due to obvious reasons. WHM is still somewhat used in a9s because the job itself has more burst in a shorter fight, paired up with AST. AST/SCH combo is still preferred though.

[CookieMonsta]

paid actors huh?

Perfect balance is a lie, the sooner you wake up to that fact, the sooner you will see that FFXIV has done an absolutely stellar job of maintaining some semblance of viability.
As long as RPGs have existed with multiple, different classes, there has and will always be a meta towards highest efficiency. This is the path of least resistance to overcoming difficult content.

Do you know why the DPS meta existed and why it continues to persist? because it is the path of least resistance. Mechanics and coordination are extremely difficult to sustain, it is most often easier to just end the fight faster so that you do less mechanics. The only thing Gordias did was making that DPS a "requirement" as opposed to a "bonus". But as long as killing the boss faster is the path of least resistance, all jobs will be judged on their raid DPS contribution.

The Devs introducing more jobs will simply give more options when it comes to perfecting a composition to take a boss down fast, the DPS meta is not going away any time soon.

[Launched]

I can't find their logs on a9s boss with a solo healer composition. I know it's possible to solo heal that fight (and also solo tank, I've seen it a while ago on reddit), but considering that the fastest clears of a9s boss all have the traditional 2/2/4 composition, I guess solo tanking/healing refurbisher is just not the most efficient way to clear it (cmiiw, maybe someone more knowledgeable about this can elaborate).

I did solo heal for a9s before. Both MT and single healer seemingly struggled to do more dps. I was using PLD back then and I felt that I had to switch on ShO more. WAR can do close to a DPS range in a9s due to the aoe, so there is no question on that. The main issue is the correlation of MT and the healer(s) total DPS. The fastest a9s should still be 3:17 from Rushers and they do normal comp for that fyi.

Speaking of A9S, a very impressive 2:35 kill just got uploaded not too long ago. The overall DPS is pretty ridiculous:
https://www.twitch.tv/doglooxt/v/102598148
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/69kAK...pe=damage-done

[shao32]

snip

yes i know perfect balance cant exist, there is alwas some skill to touch, some utility to ajust, some job to rework, It obvious un a Game like that, DPS metas inself are not a problem like that, only if are unintended and get out of control like this one, and i dont think none of you belive whe are fine with what we have now, with the current state of the game, with DPS meta or not we need a change, we go to get a change, and i Hope we dont get a expansión where ppl get mad for just put x job and nerf together or ppl get insult and Kick out from partys for dont be "optime" even if he/she do they job nice, i just ask for that and ppl dont close they mind on other points of view.