Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Brannigan]

Even fighting games can reward you for perfect mastery of defensive strat

That isn't a video of a defensive style winning, though. Daigo only wins that match because he goes super aggressive and is able to use perfect execution of a defensive technique to survive where traditional defense (blocking the super) would have gotten him killed. In the middle of the parry string he even risks a jump, because he thinks he needs the extra air attack for his combo to finish Chun Li. If Daigo had played defensively, he would have had no way to overcome Justin Wong's massive life lead and the timer would have killed him. It's kind of like tanking A3S in full strength gear and without tank stance - it was necessary to win and it was important to execute defensive abilities properly against Living Liquid's cleaves and big AOEs. Traditional defensive play (tank stance) gets you killed by the enrage.

With that being said, FFXIV 2.0 has never been a game that emphasizes defense so I'm really not sure why you'd hope for it to start in 4.0. It's like hoping to win the lottery without buying a ticket.

[Sarcatica]

That isn't a video of a defensive style winning, though. Daigo only wins that match because he goes super aggressive and is able to use perfect execution of a defensive technique to survive where traditional defense (blocking the super) would have gotten him killed. In the middle of the parry string he even risks a jump, because he thinks he needs the extra air attack for his combo to finish Chun Li. If Daigo had played defensively, he would have had no way to overcome Justin Wong's massive life lead and the timer would have killed him. It's kind of like tanking A3S in full strength gear and without tank stance - it was necessary to win and it was important to execute defensive abilities properly against Living Liquid's cleaves and big AOEs. Traditional defensive play (tank stance) gets you killed by the enrage.

With that being said, FFXIV 2.0 has never been a game that emphasizes defense so I'm really not sure why you'd hope for it to start in 4.0. It's like hoping to win the lottery without buying a ticket.

I think this point is what a good amount of us can agree on. Some games emphasize tanks being just tanks with wet noodles and that's fine, this game however introduces another level for tanks and healers to do more than their traditional jobs. As long as each tank/healer has the capability to do at least 50% of a DPS, the game has to balance raids with that consideration. It's part of the game and I don't see why people get so defensive about having to play tanks/healers like DPS, this is something that players need to understand mostly because you as a player are given the tools to do damage so you should use those skills. Who knows if the tank/healer formula will change but I don't see it happening, seeing this meta has been existing since 2.x, the DPS meta was just "hidden".

[shao32]

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not at all, we are not doing more that our job, our Core skills do damage even if you dont want you do dps using the basic skills and we are not talking about that bcs thats work here and is fine, tanks are doing dps from lvl 1 thats not the matter here, something many of you dont get un you head is the simple question about why is mandatory saccrifice our defense for more damage?, why they dont just simple remove damage penalty of tank stances? Why the player base get so mad about to ask for better tanks Mode whe all here hate so much use shield/grit/defiance? If the Game was desing to be all dps with subjobs then wth shield oath exist? To become a simple pull skill?
If we are the modern tanks that many say our tank stances are the worse skill never made and its not fair one tank have all and the other 2 just get extra useless mitigation to be diferent

We just ask for more Gameplay around to improve our mitigations skills un combat with our rotations and stats, not remove damage from tanks, at least thats i want, to fell more rewarded from other aspects of my job, not for fropping grit and hey look Moore damage, keep me alaive with shadow skin if you can

[Sarcatica]

not at all, we are not doing more that our job, our Core skills do damage even if you dont want you do dps using the basic skills and we are not talking about that bcs thats work here and is fine, tanks are doing dps from lvl 1 thats not the matter here, something many of you dont get un you head is the simple question about why is mandatory saccrifice our defense for more damage?, why they dont just simple remove damage penalty of tank stances? Why the player base get so mad about to ask for better tanks Mode whe all here hate so much use shield/grit/defiance? If the Game was desing to be all dps with subjobs then wth shield oath exist? To become a simple pull skill?
If we are the modern tanks that many say our tank stances are the worse skill never made and its not fair one tank have all and the other 2 just get extra useless mitigation to be diferent

No one is forcing tanks to not be in tank stance, you can still clear any content as long as you are 100% good on your rotation, exception on Gordias A4S ofc because dps check was tighter on the few legs. It's the part of the game where there are surplus of damage output, mitigations, healings at a much higher ilvl which people complain to be a problem when they aren't. Look at T13 in full i130s, there were already quite a good amount of people just having tank stance up for the damage spike. T9 was quite a good joke too in full i110s for tanks, just put tank stance on for Bahamut's Favor and Ravensbeak and you done. It has been the same thing, the DPS meta just wasn't fully developed yet in 2.x hence why you didn't feel it was a problem until 3.0. With more raiders developing the most optimal meta in 3.0, suddenly it becomes a huge problem. Why is that so? auto attacks haven't been a problem so far even in 2.x contents, no sugarcoating either on how flimsy those auto attacks hit you as well. Generally most raiders in 2.x weren't as skilled and informed too. IMO FFlogs played a good part in making people realize their full potential as players and it is also another reason why few veteran raiders are still in the game, to challenge the tier in the shortest amount of time or just to pad if they so want it. This has no direct implication to other people who just want to clear or play for fun.

ShO/Grit/Defiance are all still integral in early progression. Maybe blame on SE for designing easier tier then? Tools are made to be used but as you get better and get more gear, you just realize that those aren't needed as much anymore, that's also part of your own progression in the game.

[shao32]

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true nobody is focing me to no stay in tank stance, but are so many how look bad at you if you dont do it, you and me are tired to see this kind of treats off ppl how want to be tanky and they cant bcs others kick then or call it bad, so many agresive coments about never use grit more that necesary,happen in the other side, we see it and i dont deny it but was a lot less severe and less comon, was a lot of paladins how suffer the dps meta, a lot of DKR call bad for stay in grit and dont use blood weapon, and a lot of bad WARs die for the glory of fell cleave.

full potential? no, that cant have that name, its just the most unfair trade off tanks we have with one logic option, be tanky for emity? dont need it, the dps gain solve that, extra mitigation?, same you dont need it, acc? same, a mere tool for a especific moment, you cant help you party to play more confortable anymore, healers heal to much, they never run of MP like before.

tanky mode was a quality life for healers and dps mode, you dealt you normal dps, you "dps" mode dont give you a huve dps gain to neeed to be to risky in any moment, t9 at certain ilvl yeah can be easy but was a more easy for healers stay on ou tank mode due the amount of damage the party recive, the damage spike was more random that now and t13 was the same, you support you party in other ways and feels so good make they job more easy.

you know why alexander was bad from the first tier to the last? why the lower clear rates why top players take it down in less that 2 weeks in every tier? i tell you, alexander is just a big dummy with tons of aoes to piss off you rotation, ppl dont get excited like before to down a turn, the emotion in the end the tension of the last 5% of hp, alexander is a raid with the most predictable mechanics when only ppl want to know in the end "how was my dps bro?"

and the fault of this problem come from al the quality life tools healers and some tanks recive making our primary responsibilitys extremly easy, there almost nothing that just a rampath without shield and a good adloquium cant solve now.

[Brian_]

you know why alexander was bad from the first tier to the last? why the lower clear rates why top players take it down in less that 2 weeks in every tier? i tell you, alexander is just a big dummy with tons of aoes to piss off you rotation, ppl dont get excited like before to down a turn, the emotion in the end the tension of the last 5% of hp, alexander is a raid with the most predictable mechanics when only ppl want to know in the end "how was my dps bro?"

and the fault of this problem come from al the quality life tools healers and some tanks recive making our primary responsibilitys extremly easy, there almost nothing that just a rampath without shield and a good adloquium cant solve now.

Yes, all these videos of people cheering after their clears... they're all just paid actors. I was just hallucinating when my own static burst out in cheers after our A3S clear and after clearing A8S... and after clearing A12S.

By your logic, coil was also a "big dummy with tons of aoes to piss off you rotation." Predictable mechanics? You seriously thought coil mechanics weren't predictable? And DPS? Just because you didn't care about your DPS back then doesn't mean ACT wasn't a thing and that the best statics / FCs / servers didn't track and post their DPS even before fflogs.

You are also incredibly naive if you think that if Coil was re-released today that it wouldn't end up the same as Alexander. We improved as players. We learned how to optimize our play. We refined the meta.

The most basic and relevant reason for why Alexander had lower clear rates was because it was harder, not because of tank and healer design. I saw a lot of my friends who raided since BCoB and cleared FCoB get gated by Faust and quit entirely when their groups shattered on impact with A3S.

Content with the difficulty of A1S-A8S forced a lot of groups and players to make hard decisions that fractured the raiding population. The content was so hard that you really couldn't clear it without 8 good players with the same motivation. And, it turns out that's a very rare thing to find. Raid with friends? Not unless they're skilled and similarly motivated. Raid with FC/LS? Same. That's why everyone transferred to Gilgamesh (NA), Ragnarok (EU), and Chocobo (JP). SE gave us a HC raid when their players were mostly casual and MC players. That's why the clear-rates were low.

[shao32]

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paid actors huh? when you really put a effort on kill a hard boss, you put you soul in that fight in a real challenge boss you feel so nice after that, alexander fail most on that, yeah i agree with alexander have some interest and new mechanics that are pretty cool, but the rest are just in core all the same.

do you really think the DPS bias meta is the right step to the future and healt of the game? a game where devs have a lot of jobs and want all jobs be viable and fun to play in any content? that can't happen now with this meta, the diference i want to show with respect to 2.x is that, tank/heals and dps was balance, all jobs was perfect viable, no one get judge for they skill set and job performance and let us make a lot of raid compositions, a meta where jobs get judge by and only byt they DPS performance cant have a future, you see what happen with palains, how bards suffer and machinist get the same, how monks the best dps job is ironically get fell apart by the dps utility of dragoon and ninja combo?

the reason why alexander get lower rates and low popularity in terms on boss desing was compared to coil boses was more like you fighting a monster hunter dragon challenge you defiant and harder but epic, to a dark souls boss where minor mistakes means instan raid wipe, even if alexander was only a savage mode the result was the same.

there is a problem here, there is a big problem here, you saw, i saw, everyone here saw, a big problem when heavensward was release and get worse and worse, and i cant accept the answer of git gud or leave, is not a problem for me but i feel is pretty unfair for many others and the game intself, im not a dev, and i dont have the solution for this so thats why i have faith on the new combant sistem and i belive this path is not the right direction at all, its hard i know, a MMO is not like any rpg game but close you mind and say thinks buff the others or die is not a way to do things.