[Cash Shop Idea] Game Time Token

[Felis]

We already have game time tokens we buy with real money. They are called Crysta.

[Zojha]

Well no it's not the same deal because if you just give the crafter a free sub, they now have both the gil they made from crafting -and- the free sub.

Except they aren't doing anything with that gil other than accumulating it, because there's nothing worthwhile to use it on. We have people at the gil cap because of that. Losing that gil is entirely inconsequential.

That's why it is the same thing.

[Felis]

Except they aren't doing anything with that gil other than accumulating it, because there's nothing worthwhile to use it on. We have people at the gil cap because of that. Losing that gil is entirely inconsequential.

That's why it is the same thing.

The tokens will only help here if they are untradeable, but the OP want them to be tradeable.

[Aldora]

Trust me, there's nothing close to "common" in that common sense.

Say today they add the token, what could go so terribly wrong in the game that the thought of this makes you sick to your stomach? I really want to understand what are the extremely terrible consequences you're seeing. If you decided to answer this question, try answering from the hypothetical scenario where sub token was already added to the game.

About RMT, I explained this in the first page, why do you think RMT is bad for the game? It's not bad "just because", I explained in post #7 what's the big difference between RMT with bot-obtained gil and a sub token sanctioned by SE, one has a deep impact in the economy and no one can control it, the other can be fully controlled by SE. If you remove the primary reasons why RMT is considered bad, what do we have left to oppose?

A last question, what exactly is wrong about a sub token controlled by supply and demand? Having a static price can be damaging to the economy, the economy keeps shifting, there are times gil circulates more and is easier to get, and other items it is not, the prices of all other items in the market are subject to inflation and deflation, why not a sub token that is also purchased with in game currency?

I reiterate, you're reacting like something catastrophic would happen should this is implemented, but you're not explaining what exactly. I want to understand your point of view.

I can't believe what i'm reading here... If that's seriously what you believe, then i'm very sorry for you for thinking that way.

I've been explaining myself throughout this thread this entire time. But, if you want me to use examples:

1. The money has to come from somewhere, so someone has to buy tokens so that others can buy it with in-game cash. This means that there has to be at least 1 person who would pay for at least 2 months worth of subscription fees, so that someone else can buy one of those monthly game time tokens through in-game cash. But, what makes you think that (s)he won't be buying more tokes? When will it be enough? If people are willing to 90 bucks so that 6 characters can wear a dress you can buy from the Cash shop, what do you think will happen if people can buy game time tokens and sell those on the market boards?

That doesn't strike you as at least a bit concerning?

2. People will sell those tokens so that they will get more gil in game. What do you think will happen to the economy on the market boards? Do you think that due to this the prices of the items they sell on the market boards will go down? There are so many items on the market boards which go for tens of millions in gil. If people get the means to get gil by selling tokens on the market boards, do you really think that this doesn't affect everyone to a point that more people are going to consider using RMT (legal or no) to get the money to pay for all of that? What about new players? How are they going to be able to get something from a market board if the prices are astronomical, unless you can get gil through RMT?

Isn't that a concerning issue for you?

3. How on earth can you justify determining the price of game time based on in-game currency? I mean, have you forgotten what happenend with the housing prices? If you look at that, what would be a "reasonal" price for game time on the markets? 25M for 30 days? So, rich people will be able to buy game time?

How is this not a major red flag?

4. How on earth can you justify determining the price of game time based on supply and demand? Let's say the game time will be sold for 25M today, 25.2M a few hours later and in a week it's risen to 26M. How can this be considered to be remotely fair? We are still talking about game time here. Not a piece of gear.

If you still can't see any fault a Token system with means of buying it from the market boards, then it won't matter what i say. You will not find any fault in regards to a system like this. Which is exactly why it makes me sick to my stomach.

[LineageRazor]

We already have game time tokens we buy with real money. They are called Crysta.

Pretty sure everyone is aware of that. That's not what this thread is about. This thread is about Crysta that you buy from SE, and then can sell to other players in exchange for gil. Pretty sure you can't do that with the Crysta system as it currently exists.

The idea is that players that have a lot of gil can essentially buy more game time using in-game currency, from players who would normally buy gil from third-party RMT. Players who buy gil would have a legitimate source with no risk of getting banned, and so would stop buying from third-party RMT. With their customer base gone, RMT would withdraw from the game - no more gil farming, no more shout advertisements. The economy would stabilize since RMT are no longer flooding it with their bot-acquired money, and there would be ponies and rainbows EVERYWHERE!

Would this actually work? I dunno. Folks are claiming it worked for WoW, but I didn't play that game so I have no point of reference.

I can't say I'm opposed to the idea, since it would mean that crafters basically get to play this game for free. XD

[Shirai]

We already have game time tokens we buy with real money. They are called Crysta.

But that's not trade-able for gil! People are pretty much begging SE for a "legal means" to buy gil.
(Not that I have any issues making gil as it is... and I have hardly touched my crafting and gathering classes with the exception of Fisher since I came back to the game.)

[dragonseth07]

Aldora, your concerns are valid, but please look at what the system actually did in WoW. It IS a fair system, and it did good things for the economy and RMT (didn't kill it, but it did hamper it).

Old players get to play for free (to them) with their massive gold stores, and old money gets regularly moved to other players. The billions of gold sitting doing nothing is moving again, and actually getting spent. The auction house didn't become a rich-only board, it just became more active. RMT took a hit because often the token is cheaper than what the RMT sellers could afford. So, anyone who could read would obviously take the cheaper option.

You dislike it on principle, but look at what it actually does. It is a good system over there. People had all the same concerns going into the WoW Token. I remember fruitlessly arguing on Blizzard's forums about it. But, now that it's out and going, it's shown to work well.

[alimdia]

Thank you for answering.

1. The money has to come from somewhere, so someone has to buy tokens so that others can buy it with in-game cash. This means that there has to be at least 1 person who would pay for at least 2 months worth of subscription fees, so that someone else can buy one of those monthly game time tokens through in-game cash. But, what makes you think that (s)he won't be buying more tokes? When will it be enough? If people are willing to 90 bucks so that 6 characters can wear a dress you can buy from the Cash shop, what do you think will happen if people can buy game time tokens and sell those on the market boards?

That doesn't strike you as at least a bit concerning?

No, as this as covered earlier in this thread, there's a hard limit on how many tokens someone can purchase with real money in WoW. This is why I said this can be fully controlled by SE. SE is the only one that has full control on 1) how much gil players are able to earn, through increasing or decreasing supply of items, and 2) can limit the sale of tokens in any way they see fit. So nothing will spiral out of control as long as SE keeps control of it.

2. People will sell those tokens so that they will get more gil in game. What do you think will happen to the economy on the market boards? Do you think that due to this the prices of the items they sell on the market boards will go down? There are so many items on the market boards which go for tens of millions in gil. If people get the means to get gil by selling tokens on the market boards, do you really think that this doesn't affect everyone to a point that more people are going to consider using RMT (legal or no) to get the money to pay for all of that? What about new players? How are they going to be able to get something from a market board if the prices are astronomical, unless you can get gil through RMT?

Isn't that a concerning issue for you?

Again, the economy can be fully controlled by SE through supply and demand, if they want something to be valuable and expensive they make it very difficult to obtain (see thavnairian set when it was added) when they want it to be cheap they make it available through more ways, or in higher quantities, or with less restrictions. Those items worth ten millions of gils are worth that much because SE wants them to be worth that much, if things ever get out of hand you will surely see a change in availability, this is something they have been doing since ARR launch. Even in a supposedly "free market" such as ours the devs still hold a lot of control through supply and demand. Now if you think SE is incapable of maintaining control on the market that's a whole different thing. And I'll again refer to WoW's market, you speak of hypothetical cases when we already have another game that has had the system for a while, their market was not destroyed by sub tokens nor it's unsustainable if you don't sell tokens.

3. How on earth can you justify determining the price of game time based on in-game currency? I mean, have you forgotten what happenend with the housing prices? If you look at that, what would be a "reasonal" price for game time on the markets? 25M for 30 days? So, rich people will be able to buy game time?

How is this not a major red flag?

4. How on earth can you justify determining the price of game time based on supply and demand? Let's say the game time will be sold for 25M today, 25.2M a few hours later and in a week it's risen to 26M. How can this be considered to be remotely fair? We are still talking about game time here. Not a piece of gear.

I feel like I'm repeating this very often, but again the devs have control over this, in WoW they use an algorithm to determine the market price of the token, they set an upper and lower limit so things don't go out of control, so even after accounting supply and demand shifting the price they will always remain within SE control.

If you still can't see any fault a Token system with means of buying it from the market boards, then it won't matter what i say. You will not find any fault in regards to a system like this. Which is exactly why it makes me sick to my stomach.

If you don't want to discuss this then we don't have to. I'm just telling you, your fears are unfounded, the economy isn't going to collapse, the game isn't gonna drop a massive amount of players, it won't cause a new calamity. Well, this depends on how much you trust SE to control this system, I personally believe they are capable of doing it right.

I understand you're against the principle, and I respect that, but I don't think this can harm the game as long as SE takes care of it.

[Aldora]

Aldora, your concerns are valid, but please look at what the system actually did in WoW. It IS a fair system, and it did good things for the economy and RMT (didn't kill it, but it did hamper it).

Old players get to play for free (to them) with their massive gold stores, and old money gets regularly moved to other players. The billions of gold sitting doing nothing is moving again, and actually getting spent. The auction house didn't become a rich-only board, it just became more active. RMT took a hit because often the token is cheaper than what the RMT sellers could afford. So, anyone who could read would obviously take the cheaper option.

You dislike it on principle, but look at what it actually does. It is a good system over there. People had all the same concerns going into the WoW Token. I remember fruitlessly arguing on Blizzard's forums about it. But, now that it's out and going, it's shown to work well.

I understand you're against the principle, and I respect that, but I don't think this can harm the game as long as SE takes care of it.

Thank you for seeing and acknowledging my concerns and that i dislike it out of principle. I've been trying to get people to see the reasoning behind that.

I know that when it comes to cash shops, i'll be talking to a brick wall, since it's been rooted into the industry for quite some time now. However, that simply doesn't mean that it's OK.

We should not address the RMT issue by legalizing it. There is always going to be someone who will abuse the system. This is why i mentioned (on several occasions) that i'm not against gifting game time through the mog station, as long as it cannot be sold for in game currency or bought through it.

I cannot (and never will) agree with any forms of RMT. Truthfully, i also cannot stand it when people condone it for reasons mentioned earlier within this thread. Of course, I've made this known through my posts. This is my honest opinion and i will stand by it.

I sincerely hope that FFXIV will never have a WoWToken or Plex system, even though i have no say in it. Because, in the end, SE has to make the decision. However, he does have to know that i'm not the only one who's firmly against a system like this and Yoshida should at least be made aware of that.

[HPDelron]

Thank you for seeing and acknowledging my concerns and that i dislike it out of principle. I've been trying to get people to see the reasoning behind that.

I know that when it comes to cash shops, i'll be talking to a brick wall, since it's been rooted into the industry for quite some time now. However, that simply doesn't mean that it's OK.

We should not address the RMT issue by legalizing it. t.

OK. Let's talk principle for a moment. Let's talk about right and wrong. Let's talk about abuse and benefits.

I think it would be fair to say that people will always try to find an avenue for buying in-game stuff with real world money, and someone will always supply them. Even the strongest systems can't stamp it out. This market is going to be a thing no matter what SE does. Since it will always exist it becomes a matter of how the service is offered and who offers it.

The RMT gold-spammer folks? They're some pretty scummy operations. Not only do they often hack the accounts of their customers, in addition to spamming us all in game and operating in a way that does generate tons extra currency that inflates the gil:
They harm real people in making their money. Seriously these operations do "employ" people often in pretty brutal working conditions that would certainly be against the law in the US and often even are in their home countries. These operations are run by scumbags who cheat their customers and exploit their workers to make a buck. They're terrible.

You introduce something like a time token? You won't put them out of business but it will make a huge dent in how much FF14 supports them.

Right now every time we interact with the in game economy we are in some small part, interacting with and supporting them because we are interacting with and supporting the system that they rely on. Having time-tokens would greatly shrink that part.

In all honesty I'm reminded of prohibition in the USA. No matter if you like or dislike drinking it really did little to stop the drinking the problem. Instead of booze being produced by honest people making money and contributing the community, paying taxes and being safely overseen by regulators the business was taken up by criminals. Criminals that sold bad product, caused violence, didn't contribute the community and didn't pay their taxes.


RMT will always, always be a thing. SE currently pohibits it and leaves the market to the gil spammers who annoy us, who scam their customers, disrupt the market and abuse their workers.

SE introduces tokens and suddenly the market (like it or dislike it) is controlled by us, and by SE. A great deal more honest players benefit. A great deal fewer scumbags benefit, and for their trouble SE gets an infusion of cash they can use to improve them game for all of us.