Dismantle the Holy Trinity

[Vulcwen]

The trinity works because it gives clear group responsibilities, creates team dynamics by introducing interdependence, as well as a variety in approach to combat encounters.
There can be certain variations, but the core concept behind it is:
People need to play as a team, as that enhances the feeling you actually play in a group, rather than single player with also other people around (kinda like how FATEs go).
The role in said team has to be clear, without any communication needed between team members, to allow for random matchmaking to work without trouble.

Because the roles are clear, they are also developer-defined, rather than community-defined, and therefore less subject to be based on people's experiences with other games and false information. This therefore creates a much more consistent experience, what in turn makes it easier to balance.

[Shurrikhan]

The trinity works because it gives clear group responsibilities, creates team dynamics by introducing interdependence, as well as a variety in approach to combat encounters.

The first here as it would fit the second then contradicts the third, and vice versa. Set roles that would require another player to even achieve, say, survival (against avoidable or mitigateable damage) reduces possible variation, and restrict "lucrative" player behavior, breadth of play, and toolkit synergy.

Because the roles are clear, they are also developer-defined, rather than community-defined, and therefore less subject to be based on people's experiences with other games and false information.

This part is backwards. Developer-defined roles generally intend to be clear. What is done with them will still nonetheless be community defined because most "clear" roles work as advertised under only specific contexts, whereas community approaches will be context- (or, content-) dependent, and therefore more precise. Assumptions made based on the set roles are what most often creates misinformation, not the context-specific generative "roles" given by the community. Applying strict roles and looking no further does not "make it easier to balance"; it is more often a refusal to even try, or the pretext for that neglect.

[XiXiQ]

POTD has shown us you can do without the standard party makeup (albeit more challenging at times). I don't think they should drop the standard parties completely, but it could be an option to choose in DF, along with undersized, etc. I'd expect it would help to reduce wait times as well.

[Vulcwen]

..

I used the wrong word there, what I meant was "distinction". Less clear roles indeed create more variety in what a player can do on a case-by-case basis.

And yes, you could read that other thing backwards, the point is that clear roles are required if you don't want the community to mess with them. And cases you don't want that is in random groups, as you'll end up with disagreements that can result in very bad experiences. However to be able to create amazing experiences, you need to give players some agency, which is what you sacrifice when making roles clear.
Making MMOs is always balancing the possibility to have a great experience with the likelihood of a terrible experience because people abuse the system.

[Axxion]

POTD has shown us you can do without the standard party makeup (albeit more challenging at times). I don't think they should drop the standard parties completely, but it could be an option to choose in DF, along with undersized, etc. I'd expect it would help to reduce wait times as well.

Here is the thing, you can do dungeons &/or primals in a pre made party that can be done with any job, but i can see it as a option tho

[Atomicstorm]

Good! That means they will try to FIX the Holy Trinity, but we gotta see what is gonna happen. It could not work, that is why I suggested something else just in case, I thought It was interesting and that perhaps I nailed some good points. God I was wrong.

To think this was a mine field of salty proportions I could never predict.

I never said this game could die for not doing as I suggested, I said it could die for not fixing anything. You and Ashelia went full scarecrow on that and kept pouding on that strawman, and you are still doing it. So if you are still doing after all I\\'ve explained, then yes, you are messed up and unreasonable.

Drama queen much? Been reading this thread and you went from a suggestion, to a demand, to an ultimatium.. from a tone of a request to one edging on passive/aggressive. This is where I stop reading.

[Shurrikhan]

I used the wrong word there, what I meant was "distinction". Less clear roles indeed create more variety in what a player can do on a case-by-case basis.

And yes, you could read that other thing backwards, the point is that clear roles are required if you don't want the community to mess with them. And cases you don't want that is in random groups, as you'll end up with disagreements that can result in very bad experiences. However to be able to create amazing experiences, you need to give players some agency, which is what you sacrifice when making roles clear.
Making MMOs is always balancing the possibility to have a great experience with the likelihood of a terrible experience because people abuse the system.

I've only experienced the opposite in XIV, personally, wherein a group will get upset that a run is taking so long because the role-fixated healer won't Cleric, the tank barely deals damage, and the dps won't dodge AoEs.
Though, I have seen consistency mandated more in tank-/heal-less games such as various Korean action-MMOs (Tera, Vindictus, Blade & Soul, take your pick), and sometimes a yelling match, or one avoided yet silently felt throughout the run, over who should do what. I feel that that was more a case wherein players could/had to sacrifice damage for tank tools (where those tools are then powerful enough to make up in threat for reduced dps, be that by skill or gear), such that the top dps didn't want to spec into them, but still wanted whoever did waste some dps on them to be good and strong enough to keep consistent control, so that he could maximize his better dps — in short it came down to contradictory epeen even while having very high standards for those 'beneath' the lead player.
That said, the closest I've seen to that in XIV, and that I can imagine even after changes to the 'trinity', are 'enmity first, tank!' (said the Monk) and 'who's the dragon kick bitch?' (asked the Monk).

Most disorder in XIV's content would require a greatly increased artificial difficulty to be caused by blurred roles themselves. The main thing is the 'assumption' of disorder and the player's reluctance to adapt to what could as easily be a good thing. (Granted, yes, sometimes people do over-ambitious shit; but that's not so much role-blurring as commandeering.)

To back up a bit though: yes, if the healer had the equal option of going 100% dps without any real toolkit penalty, not only would it be imbalanced, but it could also cause disorder depending on the party's reaction to that situation. It's dependent on the involved player's ability to evaluate and adapt, and on conventions the community tends to set for x scenario. If there are no other party members even capable of healing, then the responsibility inevitably still falls to the guy who has part of his toolkit devoted to the function. But if there are others who simply have yet to use their 'healing' part of their, or have yet to use multi-role tools for that purpose, then things could get hairy until they've learned how. Additionally, if there's a community-conventional "main healer" who's not healing, requiring more output-costly "off" heals from others, that could lead to an argument of sorts until there becomes a well known convention for how best to handle the compiled toolkits, or, better yet, the party members themselves are capable of spot-evaluation. (Inevitably that may ask for as much of a "burden of knowledge" as league moba play, but is that really such a bad thing?)

[Savagelf]

look the trinity is way is ffxiv it won't change no matter how time there these post no how ideal we tried feed get riden. no other game has been able get ride of trinity even if tried. look guild wars 2 it tried and it not doing very well. the dev want structure change for make so future job can fite in to trinity come 4.0 also with news jobs it won't easy add them with out set system in place the trinity is the only system current works.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. this also true with the trinity in mmo too one could say That the Trinity is the worst form of game machanic, except for all the others.

look every time mmo change it core game machinac it is hit hard and lose lots of players. Miss i think all you really care about is yourself and your desire for FFXIV. You shouldn't seek force change on ffxiv is effect other around you.

[Reynhart]

look every time mmo change it core game machinac it is hit hard and lose lots of players. Miss i think all you really care about is yourself and your desire for FFXIV. You shouldn't seek force change on ffxiv is effect other around you.

Everytime a game reuses existing concepts, people cry because it's the same as always.
Everytime a game creates new concepts, people cry because it's different.

There's no solution

[Savagelf]

then it go back to this saying The Trinity is the worst form of game mechanic, except for all the others.