Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Jpec07]

The thing is some posters here don't advocate doing DPS even when their primary responsibility is met. Now that's the issue. Most tanks don't know how to maximize damage output is also another one. You can have tanks doing as low as 400dps and on the extreme side, some tanks can do 1.5k dps, both are doing the same fight. How does that happen actually? Is it just a coincidence that most tanks that advocate pure tanking do as low as 500dps (pls check if anyone here gets that number btw), when optimally you can do 800dps in full tank stance? For tanks to have as high as 60% difference in DPS despite both in the same tank stance uptime is sketchy. People aren't readily going to admit they do low DPS either nor they will say they can't press buttons in a logical way. One word I can say: skill. This is why the discussions always end up in a huge mess because it represents 2 sides that dont want to talk it out. A good discussion can only happen when common issues and understanding match.

How do you feel yourself when you see OTs in 24mans doing way less DPS than you especially when you are main tank, and even worse you are on 100% tank stance? That's a huge red flag people need to look into.

I don't actually have a parser because it's against the ToU, and because people have been banned for using parse numbers to belittle other players.

Which is exactly what you seem to be doing here (so be careful).

I'd advise you to read my corollary; at the end of the raid, what matters is not whether you did 500dps with 70% mitigation or 2000dps with 20% mitigation. What matters is whether or not you had fun, whether or not the boss died, and whether or not you helped the group get through the fights. Sure, people who optimize their output will help encounters go more quickly, but the only measure of skill and success is whether or not you are performing adequately to complete the content you are challenging. In something like Weeping City of Mhach? Optimized tank DPS isn't going to matter as much to that end as in A12S. It may help some in Weeping City, but both tanks will be able to succeed at the encounter, and so both are equally performant to that end.

[SpookyGhost]

I'd advise you to read my corollary; at the end of the raid, what matters is not whether you did 500dps or 2000dps, nor whether you mitigated 70% of incoming damage or only 30%. What matters is whether or not you had fun, whether or not the boss died, and whether or not you helped the group get through the fights.

I didn't know someone could say something and then contradict themselves in the very next sentence. Impressive.

[Jpec07]

I didn't know someone could say something and then contradict themselves in the very next sentence. Impressive.

I fail to see the contradiction. Would you mind pointing it out? I fear in my verbosity I may have skipped explaining a couple steps in my logic (which could give the appearance of contradiction).

[whiskeybravo]

No contradiction that I can see. It matters if you're failing, but if the group is succeeding then personal numbers don't really matter. That's just for Ego

[Sarcatica]

I dont really get that stance tbh. How exactly is presenting the truth belittling players? This conundrum has always existed for as long as I can think. The bottomline for this is whether you can clear contents, but what if you can't? Do you continuously say it's the DPS that are bad? There has to be a limit to how critical you want to be at your own performance. People are free to hide behind their comfy bubbles, but there is no denying how many of these tanks get stuck easily when they get introduced to a bigger DPS check. That's something realists need to rationalize with or you will forever be dependent on high DPS teams to carry you through, teams can get tired having to clear raids with suboptimal plays from tanks so you are praying that people don't replace you when you are not carrying your own weight.

[SpookyGhost]

I fail to see the contradiction. Would you mind pointing it out? I fear in my verbosity I may have skipped explaining a couple steps in my logic (which could give the appearance of contradiction).

Doing more damage and increasing % mitigated both increase the chance of the boss dying + helping the group clear the fight. If you mitigate just enough to not die, you'd end up causing excess healer stress. Similarly, if you only do "just enough" DPS you'll see many more mechanics which will, in turn, mean that the chance of clearing the fight goes down.

e: Also you're part of a group of 8 people, "ego" would be not caring about doing everything you can and just trying to shoot for the bare minimum - you put your own needs (not really being bothered to do more than the absolute minimum) above others.

[Sarcatica]

No contradiction that I can see. It matters if you're failing, but if the group is succeeding then personal numbers don't really matter. That's just for Ego

Ofc it matters most if you are failing checks, but more often that not, DPS have to work harder to compensate for low DPS tanks and healers. If let say that 4 DPS covers realistically 80% of the DPS check, the other 20% has to come from the tanks and healers. And most of the time you want to end faster because fights do punish you for dragging for longer, either with enrages or harder mechanics to do which most teams would rather skip. So it's not so ideal to get low DPS tanks either.

[whiskeybravo]

I think it depends a lot on your relationship with said person. If you barely know the person it's pretty easy to call them out and be rude about their performance (whether the rudeness is intended or not, it still usually comes off as rude to that person). If it's somebody you've known for a while and would consider a friend, you're not going to call them out in the same way. At least that's a problem I've run into before. And yes, there is only so much you can do to help before having to part ways with a member that is holding you back.

e: Also you're part of a group of 8 people, "ego" would be not caring about doing everything you can and just trying to shoot for the bare minimum - you put your own needs (not really being bothered to do more than the absolute minimum) above others.

No, that's more like just being a slacker. Ego is self-pride, ie caring about your fflogs ranking, clear times, encounter dps, how you spanked that boss in sword oath, etc etc. People with large egos are usually doing more than the bare minimum, and usually responsibly for most of the calling out of said "slackers"

[Jpec07]

Doing more damage and increasing % mitigated both increase the chance of the boss dying + helping the group clear the fight. If you mitigate just enough to not die, you'd end up causing excess healer stress. Similarly, if you only do "just enough" DPS you'll see many more mechanics which will, in turn, mean that the chance of clearing the fight goes down.

Oddly, some people enjoy navigating mechanics (they're crazy, I know).

I also failed to specify what I thought was a given for this conversation: damage mitigation is inversely proportional to DPS (in most cases). With a modicum of similar skill, a tank who opts to hone their skill around mitigation and minmaxes their cooldowns for optimal sequence and usage on a given encounter such as to take virtually no damage very likely won't do as much damage as the tank who opts for the minimum amount of mitigation required to survive in favor of Big Numbers (Praise Fell Cleavus).

If a tank has both poor mitigation and poor damage output, then they (1) are new to the game or to their role, (2) have never been offered correction, (3) have some enfeeblement preventing them performing optimally, or (4) they dgaf and are there to troll people. However, regardless of the reason, if the group succeeds and everyone has a good time, then they are adequately skilled for the encounter.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I wonder how the community would react to a raid boss that has an enrage timer, and also hits enrage if you do more than a certain amount of dps during each phase. I'd wanna see that.