Is TP interesting as a mechanic?

[Ultimatecalibur]

The main reason I see players seeing TP as "boring" is due to the fact that all TP based classes only have 1 or 2 TP consuming rotations: a low TP consumption single target rotation (all non casters/healers have one) and possibly a high TP consumption AoE rotation (PLD and DRK uses MP instead for their AoE rotations). TP management is currently only important when a single target fight lasts so long that the low TP single target rotation or the amount of AoE attacks performed to kill all targets has consumed most of the character's TP.

The addition of high TP cost high single target damage actions/combos would likely cause players to find TP management a bit more interesting.

[Khalithar]

Snip

We've had the discussion in a few threads, I know you're all about adding more thoughtful choices to the game to make it more interesting. To be completely honest though, I have no idea what COULD work as an alternate resource system if we absolutely MUST have one for all the classes. I stand by my prior assertion however, that the resource system as a whole is a complete mess since there isn't a whole lot of depth as far as resource management goes. I've said in my posts as well, that I've always felt if something isn't adding complexity or anything interesting, I'd rather just see it scrapped. Some kind of resource system that actually requires some attention paid to it with some kind of payoff at the end (like say a really powerful offensive or defensive cooldown) is something I can get behind. Or something class dependent.

Mnk for example, I think they don't need TP as a resource system, I think the whole ramp up they have is sufficient with the increased damage and rolling thunder stacks the reward for managing your buttons correctly.

[Sandpark]

I feel two resources is superfluous. The GCD can have the resources built into it or the TP system can remove the GCD and have a global resource matter more.

Look at Dark Souls combat. There is no GCD but you don't see endless button spamming there due to punishing repercussions and sizeable resource cost. Where as here, you still have button spamming and we have two or more resources. The whole point of a resource in my book should make you choose when to use key skills versus always or constantly use key skills in an on rails script.

I am not saying stamina should come back to XIV but TP and MP functions the same as stamina.

• If the meta is use skills and use them often regardless of enemy, then TP/MP/Stamina cannot have huge cost or they can't be used often.
• If the meta is use skills in response to each situation depending on the enemy, then TP/MP/Stamina could and should have high cost.

You can't alter a global class resource so much other than cost, regen, or potency.

You can alter a global cooldown class resource in many other ways.

Redundancy.

I prefer high cost and skilled cast but some might prefer GCD. Imo multiple resources is superfluous and makes combat more about the math and less about how/when I am casting something.

Now if there were class specific resources, that played with different mechanics besides cost, regen, or potency. Maybe that would be more interesting in having two resource limiters, GCD and <insertclassspecificresource>.

Final note: Anything interesting that SE implements that makes each class play differently from another has the chance that the difference is skewed one way to make a class superior to another. It would be no different than if jobs were more than flavors of each other, you get the flavor of the month mantra.

[Knives]

TP is currently a weak system and adds nothing to the game other than capping potential DPS.

I think that TP should start at 0, auto-attacks should be removed, many weaponskills should be called "basic attacks" and should be used as they are now but instead they generate TP, which can be unleashed like a personal "limit break" that deals heavy damage and/or provides benefits to the party in some way (these would also be on the Global Cooldown). BLM would need an overhaul imo to something more like 1.23, but instead many of their spells would grant them TP which could be used to help them regenerate their MP.

If it was up to me, I'd also try to make a skillchain system similar to FFXI by using them in sequence with other party members, except not as complicated. Tanks and healers need not have skills that interact with it though.

[Sylvain]

4, it should be revamped it's useless


TP has virtually zero purpose right now. It just prevents melee job to spam aoe and... that's it.
There's no way you can run out of TP by doing single target in a bosss fight and there shouldn't be a way either.

Imo, any bar that has no purpose for the said job should be removed or replaced with something new.

While I don't necerly like to compare FF14 to WoW, something very nice WOW did was removing the useless bar for something that fits the job mechanic. If the bar couldn't be removed than spell cast are tunned down so low that the bar is just here for the sake of being here.
For instance, the TP bar could be replaced by a rage bar for the Warrior. Rage does matter, your TP don't.
Same for the Eatherflux from both Scholar and Summoner.
Something like that (the shadowball would be eatherflux) would make more sens
Other example, the moonkin Sun and Moon bar going back and forth was a great addition.
As a Astromancer, I'd rather have my TP bar replaced by icons showing which card I picked, kept and Royalised than having to look at my buff bar. Ofc we're just moving the information. But it makes more sens, instead of having a useless TP bar I have a bar with my cards stuff.

Also, not only should they remove the TP bar but it should actually be replaced with proper new ressource and interesting mechanic for everyone. Same for the mana for caster dps. The only DPS having to take a good care of its mana is the Blackmage, the bar is useless to every other DPS and tank beside, maybe, Paladin. (but the way he uses mana is so dull that it could be easily revamped)

[Shurrikhan]

We've had the discussion in a few threads, I know you're all about adding more thoughtful choices to the game to make it more interesting. To be completely honest though, I have no idea what COULD work as an alternate resource system if we absolutely MUST have one for all the classes. I stand by my prior assertion however, that the resource system as a whole is a complete mess since there isn't a whole lot of depth as far as resource management goes. I've said in my posts as well, that I've always felt if something isn't adding complexity or anything interesting, I'd rather just see it scrapped. Some kind of resource system that actually requires some attention paid to it with some kind of payoff at the end (like say a really powerful offensive or defensive cooldown) is something I can get behind. Or something class dependent.

Mnk for example, I think they don't need TP as a resource system, I think the whole ramp up they have is sufficient with the increased damage and rolling thunder stacks the reward for managing your buttons correctly.

Agreed, on the whole. Even after a lot of thought on the matter, and desperately wanting to make something more thoughtful out of it, I can't really come up with a system that can sufficiently replace TP without severely changing job gameplay (albeit possibly for the better), but with few exceptions I've only come to be less hesitant about removing altogether. (See ending note.)

Just taking Monk for an example, I feel like either of two fairly obvious general paths would work well:

1. Up potential dps slightly, but require (improved) in-combat Meditation for Purification-based TP restoration. Bring up some other options that would otherwise share that purpose to keep them balanced (Tornado Kick and The Forbidden Chakra).

OPTIONAL: Perhaps allow TP-dependant mechanics, such as increased passive output at higher TP levels, balanced against abilities that continuous attacks provide better ramp-up and culminating damage for.

2. Scrap TP. Revise Fracture (directly or indirectly), Impulse Drive (indirectly), and Purification (directly), so that the last has interesting usage and both Fracture and Impulse Drive are rotationally/situationally viable stanceless fillers.

That said, (2) seems the obvious solution only when taking AoE out of the equation. Without the TP limitation it is otherwise too powerful in most cases. However, at least in dungeoning and the open world, this issue could be mitigated with what many people have already been asking for — stronger enemies, and stronger and more applicable CC options. Survival and lost time (spent on CC, kiting, and extra healing) becomes the limiting factor for AoEs, rather than TP and MP (still a bit of a limiter, especially for healers like AST and WHM).

________________________________________


Edit: Well crap, back to thinking about how every Job might well be able to use a third resource, and is a large part of what seperates them from their source class, while otherwise only HP and MP remain (and MP usage increased across non-primary users). But, I doubt all future jobs could fit that system as well, and I don't want to place that restriction on them. Spirit (a resource for Links, similar to Skill-chains / Magic Bursts) is also a tasty alternative... /zero progress

[Leigaon]

TP could be used in different ways, like someone said it is mainly there to limit or manage AoE damage while single targets doesn't really get hurt by it. While this is fine, TP management could be adjusted at later levels.

For example, levels 1 - 30 shouldn't have any issues with TP management, by then you should be used to how TP works / MP works. (Should!) After that, at 30 introduce an optional mechanic for each job that consumes TP in a unique way. Lets say at 30, take the 3 tank jobs. They get an ability that allows them to buff the party temporarily but costs TP instead of MP.

WAR - AoE bloodbath, less potency but allows those in range who do damage to recover some HP.
PLD - Something similar to Shield wall, but lesser in terms of %
DRK - Something that sacrifices HP / MP / TP in order to deal extra damage on the next skill used by party members. Or maybe something along the lines of En-dark, that acts like a self shadow-wall = to the amount of damage done over the period of time but has a cap.

None of these are perfect, but in a situation like this if you use WAR bloodbath AoE in say, AV? Could help with the poison. DRK's could be higher potency but takes out some HP. While in that scenario people would be afraid to use it, just like others it would be fine in a situation where it isn't hurtful despite you using it or it's time correctly. During early levels since single targets aren't an issue really, you could use it once or twice...though only three jobs (correct me if I'm wrong) can restore another players TP, it would let people learn how to manage that TP skill and give these jobs a reason to use their songs / spells..of course other adjustments will need to be made.

As for the DD - could use TP / MP to make a single skill AoE or LoS. 1.0 had that ability for archers to make a weaponskill LoS. The dungeons are so focused on AoE but our rotations don't allow it. That's why we're stuck at level 30 single kills on 3 mob pulls so much before a boss. TP cost would be high so not to spam but could toggle. Even a potency reduction if needed. Say in Longstep lv.30. Rouge fighting 3 mobs. Use up TP from Gust slash to make it cone. Major TP is consumed to do what's basically 3x throwing daggers on one mob. Though, that might add a level of complexity that some aren't ready for at that level...

[Ahrniel]

It is pointless to have such a system in a game you are expected to be playing all the time anyway. I feel the same about mana, except for Black Mages, I believe that alone is the most clever way of dealing with resources that this game has implemented, and it astonishes me it wasn't applied in the other jobs. I would remove TP first, and perhaps remove Mana later as well after reviewing how Black Mages could work without it.

I would also go beyond and remove all cooldowns from self-buffs and make them work with resources you generate through combos, like Warrior's wrath stacks. But that is talk for another thread.

I don't like limited resources and I don't like cooldowns, it is lazy design that ends up in removal of player-game relationship, it decreases gameplay.

[Solaiel]

Well right now i am not sure how to make it more interesting. But there is one thing i would like to address thought on, because it is going to be an issue if things go further the way they are, without tp to change.
I am not sure if someone mentioned this already, so excuse me if i say something you know already, but it bothers me a little.
Right now on my pld equip of course i try to stay away from parry as much as possible because its useless. But i find myself with a lot of skill speed stuff at the moment, because choices right now are not the best for plds.
The result is my tp are quite fast quite empty and in fights like a9 not even half of the fight is over and i have tp problems. That kept me thinking.
Because at the moment we have like 1000 tp. they regenerate with a set amount per tick. some classes can very well raise tp a little, but if the current itemization continues, where will it end?
I dont know if there is cap on skill speed, but equip is always getting bigger values in stats. That results in always having to take less gear to get the same values in speed.
If nothing is done at some point we will end up either wasting stat points on speed that are useless, because we are already above the cap or we will be literally fast as a greased lightning without being a monk.
So i think before a complete overhaul should be done, we should also think of preventing such situations, because this wont as much time as a complete revamp .
Also keep in mind that just removing tp as a whole will result in physical dds dealing way too much damage. Maybe a cap on skill speed would then be needed or something of the sort, but i think now is the time to at least work in the direction to prevent this problem, because the process is already going on, if you catch my drift.
At

[Shurrikhan]

I am not sure if someone mentioned this already, so excuse me if i say something you know already, but it bothers me a little.
Right now on my pld equip of course i try to stay away from parry as much as possible because its useless. But i find myself with a lot of skill speed stuff at the moment, because choices right now are not the best for plds.
The result is my tp are quite fast quite empty and in fights like a9 not even half of the fight is over and i have tp problems. That kept me thinking.

Reducing all TP natural and bonus ticks by 20% but having them tick per player (base) GCD is an idea I and a couple others have passed around a few times. The idea would then be that there's virtually no additional TP drain for taking skill speed. 2.5 GCD classes would keep the same TP regeneration rate; the rest would be slightly buffed.