Is TP interesting as a mechanic?

[Shurrikhan]

Yes, TP, that bar alongside HP and MP.

Is it interesting? Could you imagine it being more interesting? How so?
What does it accomplish? Is there something more it could accomplish that it currently does not?
Is there something else you'd rather see done with TP, a new resource in its place, etc.?

In poll form.

1. It's fine. I can't imagine any significant improvements that can be made to it, nor any need to make them.

2. It needs improvements to how TP-users can interact with the mechanic, such as by making different rotations that vary in TP-efficiency each more viable in their own way. This could also come with fixing how TP is gained, smoothing out certain oversights.

3. The mechanic itself should be more interesting, such as by having different effects because of how much TP you currently have, or scaling damage with %TP.

4. It should be scrapped and/or replaced, such as with a new resource, be that something for accelerated movement, or burst, or evasion, or something generateable, are even an individual LB gauge of sorts.

5. Other.


(Yes, this is largely for my own reference, as I've seen few focused thoughts on the subject, but many bits and pieces scattered through tangential subjects.)

[garret_hawke]

Personally, I think the mechanic is fine could be better but i would prefer if SE would spend dev time on bigger isssue eg the tanks balancing (drk tools sapping each other, pld been has tough as the other while focusing on def and war been god tier).

[Rufalus]

TP doesn't seem important to exist. Just a bar that drains slowly then gets restored by yourself or a party member. I don't really see why sprint need to cost it all either. They gave sprint no TP cost in pvp but not in pve.

At least MP has more impact on gameplay rotations such as controlling how often BLM needs to switch from astral fire to umbral ice and causing DRK to use attacks to maintain their MP.

[Alaltus]

TP mattered in XI and 1.23, ARR not so much. I'm not sure theres any hurry in changing it but.. Maybe they could re-work the tp system as like a pseudo xi tp build up system? AA build small tp, weaponskills build more tp, combos having a tp build bonus. Then TP consuming finishers that can only be used once you have enough tp and consume all tp. You would be doing the exact same thing you do now just with some instant weaponskills/abilities that you would throw in to consume your built up tp (maybe even the 100-300% bonus if done right). If balancing mages against that was too difficult i don't see any reason other than tradition for why mages can't gain tp from spellcasting.

[Shurrikhan]

Maybe they could re-work the tp system as like a pseudo xi tp build up system? AA build small tp, weaponskills build more tp, combos having a tp build bonus. Then TP consuming finishers that can only be used once you have enough tp and consume all tp. You would be doing the exact same thing you do now just with some instant weaponskills/abilities that you would throw in to consume your built up tp (maybe even the 100-300% bonus if done right). If balancing mages against that was too difficult i don't see any reason other than tradition for why mages can't gain tp from spellcasting.

To be clear:
You'd be adding additional oGCDs (all weaponskills are instant, so I'm assuming you meant off-global cooldown, or essentially abilities in every case?) that you can spent TP on?
Or would certain current weaponskills/abilities be capable of consuming TP for bonus effect? (Possibly spells and caster abilities as well, if we decided to make TP universal?)

Set TP costs, or just a minimum TP cost, and then scaling bonuses with the additional TP consumed when using up all of it at once?

Any particular gameplay goals for this system, however vague they may be? I could try to whip up something to see if it's anywhere close to what you're looking for if you'd like a second take.

[KitingGenbu]

The thing that people do not realize about tp is that it worked both ways for the player and the mob, at least in XI, which added an extra element of challenge. Since I do not have any experience with 1.0, would I want a tp system like XI in the current game? No. Why? Because, in all honesty, XI was a niche game, so people liking the main stream aspect of this game like either wow or some wow clone which is very present in this game. Personally, I have gotten used to current system and would just prefer that skill speed get a rework to increase resource gain like it actually does in wow. In wow, the more haste you have the faster your resources on certain classes tended to build (or at least before the legion pre-patch, haven't tried all the classes to verify). So its not unreasonable to want skill speed having a soft cap the restores extra tp per tick in combat.

Going back to mob difficulty increased due to XI's tp system. Of course many mobs already had scripted moves; however, overloading the mob with too much dps allowed it to spam extra moves due to the excessive tp gain (this was true for most, but not every single one, some had native regain etc). One interesting fight I recall from wow that kind of replicated this was the Nazgrim fight in Seige of Orgrimmar. Pretty much, the boss was a warrior and had various stances he would switch to throughout the fight. When it would switch to defensive stance, it would allow him to build rage at an accelerated rate, which would allow him to go ape pretty much and spam. However, I suppose it works in that sense since that is how the class's role actually works within the confines of the game and XI's tp system worked to create 'artificial' difficulty because the system worked within the confines of that game. With our current system in XIV, there's not real way to 'easily' create believable difficulty levels outside of patterns. Maybe adding more things you have to silence like ADS in coil (I bring that up and also chimera because people used to wipe on those for the longest time).

I also agree sprint shouldn't be tied to tp. It should have a cool down that doesn't cost anything at the very least, like 1 min.

[Shurrikhan]

The thing that people do not realize about tp is that it worked both ways for the player and the mob, at least in XI, which added an extra element of challenge. Since I do not have any experience with 1.0.

Just an FYI, TP existed for monsters also in 1.23. I would imagine in the same way it did for XI. Starving a monster of both damage done and taken could cripple their skill output. I cannot, however, recall if different mobs gained different amounts of TP from different sources, such as some having higher scalings from damage received or damage dealt. There were also originally skills specifically to reduce enemy TP generation (e.g. Lancer's level 8 weaponskill, Moonrise). These were removed when Yoshida implemented the 1.20 system.

In wow, the more haste you have the faster your resources on certain classes tended to build (or at least before the legion pre-patch, haven't tried all the classes to verify).

And the WoW paradigm of other spec elements being accelerated to match the flat output increase of Haste continues into the Legion pre-patch. I've tried every DPS spec within the last couple weeks, so unless one's lost that within a very recent build, no change on that front.

Personally, I have gotten used to current system and would just prefer that skill speed get a rework to increase resource gain... having a soft cap [that] restores extra tp per tick in combat.

One thing I've been advocating since ARR was switching TP refreshes to a player tick rate of 50 TP per GCD (wherein reduced TP-cost classes like Monk just use normal TP costs) or per base GCD (then affected only by Skill Speed). Bonus TP ticks would similarly be reduced by 20% and be given as a bonus at the receiving player's own TP tick rate. This would mean, if I haven't forgotten something since earlier calculations way back when, that generally there is no TP-starvation disadvantage to a typical single-target rotation, but abilities with a higher TP cost (Fracture, ToD, AoE) do remain a bit more punishing to the TP pool. (Technically, Fracture and ToD's rotational use would make no difference in single-target, since their frequency is limited unless target swapping, and therefore their relative frequency would be reduced by the amount of a given TP tick they are increased.) Inversely, they'd also regain TP more quickly from bonus sources. In other words, if a party of physical DPS, half skill speed-heavy and half of other secondary stats, were to all AoE spam, they'd deal the same modified potency within a TP pool. The speedy DPS would run out first, but if a Bard were to then sing for them after they've all run out, the speedy DPS would also recover first.

I imagine, take or keep the increase to bonus TP received, there'd be a similar effect from bonus TP gained. I just preferred a potential decimal-ly precise rate of receiving TP over getting, say, a 68.36 TP tick.

I don't mean to ignore any of your post; I'm digesting the rest of it as I can. I'm just not sure what I can say in response, especially as would be relevant to TP systems or its alternatives.

[Duelle]

Hmm...my take on this has been sort of split for a while. On the one hand, I've always had a problem with the fact every class is tied to TP. It limits what you can do mechanically with resources and resulting gameplay. You can't have anything like DK runes or WoW monk Chi units because the limiting factor is TP regeneration (a rule the devs have set for pretty much every melee job). You run the risk of trivializing TP if you were to lean more towards extra resources while still keeping TP.

On the other hand, removing TP could negatively affect a couple of things. Firstly would be BRDs. As much as I hate that they were given TP/MP regen as a gimmick, BRDs would essentially lose one ability from the change. Jobs like MNK wouldn't be affected by the removal of TP too much, but you'd need to redesign DRG and NIN around some new gameplay mechanic to act as their limiting factor. There's also the matter of cross-classing, though Invigorate no longer being mandatory can be seen as a good or bad thing.

It's a mess, simply put.

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Something I could suggest is creating a distinction between STR jobs and DEX jobs by splitting how TP works for each. PLD, WAR, DRG and DRK could work with TP being a resource you build and consume on stronger abilities. NIN, BRD, MCH (and RDM assuming it enters as a DPS) on the other hand would have TP working similarly to what we now have, as a pacing mechanism. The only issue I see with the former (outside of having to redesign WAR, PLD, DRG and DRK) is that this system clashes with combos unless we make the "main" combos free and anything outside of that cost TP.

I know I didn't mention MNK, and that's because I'd make it the exception and balance it around a brand new resource with even more emphasis on Greased Lightning.

The thing that people do not realize about tp is that it worked both ways for the player and the mob, at least in XI, which added an extra element of challenge. Since I do not have any experience with 1.0, would I want a tp system like XI in the current game? No. Why? Because, in all honesty, XI was a niche game, so people liking the main stream aspect of this game like either wow or some wow clone which is very present in this game.

You forgot to mention XI's TP system created a bias towards big damage classes and burst damage in general. That was yet another reason why people didn't like RDM melee or sub A-rank skill weapons: "you're feeding the mob TP".

[Shurrikhan]

Sorry to lead only with questions but:

You forgot to mention XI's TP system created a bias towards big damage classes and burst damage in general. That was yet another reason why people didn't like RDM melee or sub A-rank skill weapons: "you're feeding the mob TP".

Did all attacks in XI give a (near) equal amount of TP to the mob, regardless of the base or actual damage dealt, or have a set additional enmity per action, etc.? I've done XI raiding, but never where this was a concern, so I honestly have no idea as to the nuances of the XI system. I could have sworn the 1.x TP gains were based on damage, plus maybe a flat amount per hit.

PLD, WAR, DRG and DRK could work with TP being a resource you build and consume on stronger abilities. NIN, BRD, MCH (and RDM assuming it enters as a DPS) on the other hand would have TP working similarly to what we now have, as a pacing mechanism. The only issue I see with the former (outside of having to redesign WAR, PLD, DRG and DRK) is that this system clashes with combos unless we make the "main" combos free and anything outside of that cost TP.

Let me check if I'm understanding. In either case, the STR use of TP or the DEX use of TP would function as buildable resource spent to in some way empower your rotation? STR pulls this off by spending it to empower certain abilities, where as DEX spends it to attack more frequently, say by rushing a given GCD (most obvious use being the allowance of a "rapid string" every X buff/debuff windows, or so)?

I'm similarly stumped as to how the automatic consumption of (STR) TP should be done, or if it can even be automatic. Certain normal weaponskills might be a good choice, such as combo-enders or stack moves. Alternatively you could role it up into abilities like Life Surge, exchanging certain CDs for a more bankable means of effect. Not sure.

Moreover, there may be issues of Speed scaling for the STR consumption system, wherein if Speed only accelerates your rotation, it increases the actual but not the relative rate of TP gain and frequency of TP-consuming abilities, whereas Crit and Det would do both. In other words, Crit and Det would have an effect on the consumption and everything else, while Speed would only affect everything else. We already see this largely in how Speed works currently, or normally — seeing as it can only make up for a lack of individual skill enhancement (apart from to DoTs, wherein it is still weaker than Det or Crit) by having a higher output over a filler spam than the other two stats, and inversely drops in value on any class with a large per-execute range — but losing out on a whole new mechanic would be especially disappointing. This could easily be overcome (or even over-buffed) by giving TP gains only on direct damage, reducing the effect DoTs have on TP gain, or by giving a small bonus TP to every damaging skill. And it can be mitigated by just having the whole system give only infrequent usage (TP consumption).

I'm not sure if Speed in the DEX consumption system would cause the bonuses to be worth less or not. Would probably depend on how the costs for the pace adjustments are calculated... Totally up for grabs.

[Duelle]

Did all attacks in XI give a (near) equal amount of TP to the mob, regardless of the base or actual damage dealt, or have a set additional enmity per action, etc.? I've done XI raiding, but never where this was a concern, so I honestly have no idea as to the nuances of the XI system. I could have sworn the 1.x TP gains were based on damage, plus maybe a flat amount per hit.

To my knowledge it was never based on damage received, but rather per hit. The more hits a mob took, the faster it would get enough TP to deal an attack. The reason why you had MNKs using Chi Blast and only Chi Blast for mobs like Fafnir was because it didn't get as much TP for the amount of damage dealt; raids also favored BLMs (read: burst damage) for the same reason.

I'm similarly stumped as to how the automatic consumption of (STR) TP should be done, or if it can even be automatic. Certain normal weaponskills might be a good choice, such as combo-enders or stack moves. Alternatively you could role it up into abilities like Life Surge, exchanging certain CDs for a more bankable means of effect. Not sure.

Giving an example via PLD (the job I know best), your "main" combo would be free (Fast Blade => Savage Blade => Rage of Halone), but skills outside of that would have a TP cost (Riot Blade, Goring Blade, Royal Authority). So your main combo would be only limited by your GCD, but your extra skills would have a TP cost. Obviously TP costs for these abilities would have to be relatively higher and you'd probably have to reduce TP total down to 100 for STR jobs. If need be, your main combo could actually generate TP.

Moreover, there may be issues of Speed scaling for the STR consumption system, wherein if Speed only accelerates your rotation, it increases the actual but not the relative rate of TP gain and frequency of TP-consuming abilities, whereas Crit and Det would do both.

This is the problem Blizzard ran into with Rage and its numerous iterations, and I will admit we'd probably favor Skill Speed if we were to go with my suggestion since PLD, DRG, DRK and WAR would benefit from being able to generate TP faster and thus use their stronger skills more often.

I'm not sure if Speed in the DEX consumption system would cause the bonuses to be worth less or not. Would probably depend on how the costs for the pace adjustments are calculated... Totally up for grabs.

I'd probably tune TP costs to be higher but regeneration to also be faster while keeping the rest of the existing system intact. As for bonuses, you could give jobs like NIN a combo bonus to enhance TP regeneration to further play into this.

Bonus:

MNK and DNC (if it were to be implemented as I envisioned it) would instead go off a momentum system. Using PGL as an example, your TP bar initially goes from 0 to 100 when you get your first stack of Greased Lightning. Once that happens, the TP bar decays over time and subsequent skills restore some TP. Getting a second stack of Greased Lightning increases your TP to 200, with it decaying faster while your TP is between 101 and 200. Getting a third stack of Greased Lightning would increase your TP to max at 300, and it would decay even faster when your TP is between 201 and 300. If you fall below 300 TP then you lose your third stack of Greased Lightning and go back to 2 stacks. If you fall below 200 TP you lose your second stack of Greased Lightning. If you let your TP hit0 you lose your sole stack of Greased Lightning.

The bonuses for staying over 200 TP would be increased speed and damage and access to certain skills (thus making certain skills require a specific level of Greased Lightning). The bonus for staying over 100 TP would be just increased speed.

Note: I got the idea from the difficulty level gauge from the game Godhand. >.>