Dismantle the Holy Trinity

[Sigmar_Heldenhammer]

Yeah, that's the one.

[Ahrniel]

This system you are talking about reminds me of one of the now dead superhero MMOs.
Everyone just picked the most pew pew thing and ignored every other option. Zero people healing, zero people being tanky. Pure deeps fest.
Running a dungeon was the worst thing ever. Groups were an unmanageable disaster.
Sorry, but I gotta agree with others, this is heresy.

I didn't know Warriors stopped tanking because they can put up a DPS level damage. I didn't know Overgeared Healers stopped healing because their damage is as strong as the undergeared DPS. Oh right, just cause I've seen something remotely similar fail in another game just like bananas remind me of yellow this isn't going to work in FF14. Wake up people, the dps are already everywhere in FF14.

[Sigmar_Heldenhammer]

Relax, dude.
All I'm saying is this has been done before and it was an abysmal failure.

Also, "wake up sheeple, the dps is already everywhere," and so are the threads of "I'm a healer, I shouldn't have to DPS?" and "I want tanks to tank, not DPS."
What's your point?

[Ahrniel]

Also, "wake up sheeple, the dps is already everywhere," and so are the threads of "I'm a healer, I shouldn't have to DPS?" and "I want tanks to tank, not DPS."
What's your point?

Point:

- SE's design is for everyone to DPS.
- But the Holy Trinity isn't helping that design.
- So I suggested something that would.

Just read my main post, it is all there.

[Avin00]

I think that is a slight miss understanding SE's design wasn't for everyone to DPS the community found that healers and tank's could dps so they did. Under your proposed solution the exact same thing would happen just without the labels.

[Ahrniel]

I think that is a slight miss understanding SE's design wasn't for everyone to DPS the community found that healers and tank's could dps so they did. Under your proposed solution the exact same thing would happen just without the labels.

Actually you misunderstood what I wrote.
I'm not proposing a way for Healers to only Heal neither for Tanks to only Tank, I'm proposing a way to completelly embrace the idea that every class is supposed to be capable of dealing DPS at least at some point in battle, just as competently as any other in the game, and a way that actually works, not the mess it is right now.

And SE has to deal with it. The community started to DPS? Well, they embraced the idea and designed Raids entirely around the idea.
They support it, they own it.

[whiskeybravo]

The issues I've seen with this game weren't seen by me alone, but is is documented an discussed throughout the entirety of these forums.

Second thing, you talk as if I had the power to change anything and would upset people if I did? I can't just post things in this forum anymore without salt flying to my face of "Get out of here demon!". People can't even just discuss ideas anymore, everything is threatening to their very lives. That is disgusting.

Third thing, you complain about people "having" to learn a second role. Sorry pal, they already have to, that is reality. I want people to just accept it, and jobs to be properly designed to do so. It is by finally properly acknowledging that that is how jobs are supposed to work, that people will be able to properly design the jobs and then play them. But SE can't decide it, so they keep making a poor job with the concept. If they want to walk to that direction, fine, I'm just suggesting what can help them go to the direction they want to, and as I see it, the old concepts of the Holy Trinity are getting in the way of their plans. They need something new, made just for it.

Fourth thing... Oh, like, did you see the next expansion, like, a total re-work of the combat system?

I didn't think there was a lot of salt in my post.. I even complimented your efforts. And yea, if you're going to make the suggestions I'll assume, for arguments sake, that you are actually capable of making the changes. So I simply asked "why?"

Other than showing the cross-class skills pool, nobody is sure exactly how much, or how little, the combat system will change. And if it's mainly just dealing with UI, maybe we'll even be able to keep the old one. It's too early to tell, and what's more, do you not want to see what they end up doing before proclaiming the system needs to be scrapped and rebuilt entirely? SE has done a pretty decent job listening to the players to address concerns across many different aspects of the game. May not always be exactly what the players want, for that matter though it may not be exactly what the devs want either, just the best common ground that could be established.

And no, people do not have to learn how to white mage to be a bard, or learn how to paladin to be a monk. Not suggesting learning other roles doesn't help in overall understanding of the games mechanics, but it's certainly not a requirement beyond level 15.

I personally don't see a problem with the "holy trinity". Makes a lot of sense in my opinion. Tanks tank, dps deal damage, and healers heal. Any problems which arise are mostly due to how the players play these roles. From my observations: tanks are too concerned about their damage output. Every DPS wants to be the one that doesn't have to deal with mechanics so they can have max deeps. And healers, well healers have the shit end of the stick, having to deal with derpy dps that don't dodge or try hard tanks that die to every tank buster, and usually end up handling all the mechanics on top of it. But this has nothing to do with job roles, and everything to do with the player base. I don't see how changing every role to be a damage dealer on-demand changes this meta, and like Sigmar mentioned, it'd prolly make it a lot worse.

[Ahrniel]

And yea, if you're going to make the suggestions I'll, for arguments sake, assume you were actually capable of making the changes. So I simply asked "why?"

... I suppose it does make sense, I apologize.

Other than showing the cross-class skills pool, nobody is sure exactly how much, or how little, the combat system will change.

It is all speculation indeed. But I used it as a comparison because SE seems "willing" to change and scrap a lot of combat/skill related things that were around since 2.0. I think it is fair to assume this kind of change wouldn't, effort-wise, be beyond what they are willing to do.

And no, people do not have to learn how to white mage to be a bard, or learn how to paladin to be a monk. Not suggesting learning other roles doesn't help in overall understanding of the games mechanics, but it's certainly not a requirement beyond level 15.

I didn't mean it that way. I mean Tanks and Healers are having to learn how to play as DPS as well, that kind of role, not a specific job.


And the Holy Trinity works, when your Healers and Tanks don't have DPS stances. If I were to compare to WoW back in WotLK as a Restoration Druid I had a single target low damage spell called Wrath and a DoT called Moonfire. My stats were the equivalent of full Mind/Piety and almost no Intelligence in FF14. My damage was terrible, and I had no Cleric Stance. My allies took a lot of damage so I had plenty to heal, and my healing kit was quite diverse from early on. I was a full time healer with no regrets.

FF14 isn't designed like that. Tanks not having to put effort on tanking, Healers not having to put effort on healing, and having plenty of time to switch into DPS stance is how the game designed. But they can't design the classes fully because "They are still Tanks and Healers anyway, shouldn't do a good job like DPS do, because if they do DPS will be useless anyway." They can't get in a stable position with the current design, so I say scrap DDs and embrace DPS as everyone's role. Use the opportunity to polish that Bard's garbage songs and stop being shy in giving utility to jobs that already have it, but don't have more because they just happen to be DPS.

[Fluffernuff]

Point:

- SE's design is for everyone to DPS.
- But the Holy Trinity isn't helping that design.
- So I suggested something that would.

What SE designs and how the playerbase uses it are NOT the same.
SE could add a new high potency heal skill to all healers and the PLAYERS would be finding ways to use that heal to push higher DPS numbers. Do you honestly believe that everything SE designs around is everyone being a DPS and tanking and healing doesn't exist, or rather, is unnecessary?
A9-12S disagrees with you. Sophia EX disagrees with you. even EX roulette disagrees with you. SE has been actively addressing the DPS "problem" for a while since Gordias kinda fell on it's face with the DPS checks. patch after patch, they keep moving away from DPS and more towards mechanics. How in the hell do you get the idea SE is designing for DPS? because horizontal progression inflates numbers?

Even without that, the Trinity is the FOUNDATION of a game, what it's built on. A battle system and the roles within it are NOT. To change the trinity would be creating an entirely different game from the ground up. That's not an "expansion". that's not "an update". What you propose is actually on a LARGER scale than what happened to 1.0 with ARR.
This change wouldn't be Stromblood, it would be FFXIV-2. and we ALL know how well SE handles their "-2's"

[dejiko_san]

But you're not forced to DPS. A healer can choose to DPS or not. A tank can MT or DPS as OT. It's a choice.
Instead of breaking all the roles, why not just add a fourth role and call it support?