Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[ckc22]

The latter, PLD doesn't need to be more offensive, it needs to be more interesting and more viable to play (especially in the OT and AOE meta), PLDs niche is CC/buffs/support, and they need to expand on this and actually work out what they are doing with the class rather than throwing around the term "wall" (PLD has bigger buffs yes, but all tanks can MT no problem, why bring a PLD if that is all it is good for?)

Their allegiance to the trinity has made the game this way - they can't make content where you need particular jobs ie: something only a pld can tank, which ends up making jobs basically a spin on a role. It is what it is... I don't think we're going to be heading towards specs or the diversity of XI so might as well enjoy it for what it is.

[Lambdafish]

Their allegiance to the trinity has made the game this way - they can't make content where you need particular jobs ie: something only a pld can tank, which ends up making jobs basically a spin on a role. It is what it is... I don't think we're going to be heading towards specs or the diversity of XI so might as well enjoy it for what it is.

That's my point, we can't make content that requires a PLD, so they need to go down a different route with the jobs core in order to make it able to compete with the other tanks (It is now raid viable but still falls short of the mark).

[LilLemay]

That's my point, we can't make content that requires a PLD, so they need to go down a different route with the jobs core in order to make it able to compete with the other tanks (It is now raid viable but still falls short of the mark).

I'd hardly say it falls short of the mark.

Given that WAR is without a doubt the best OT, and that PLD is almost definitely the strongest MT, with the strongest defensive cooldowns, the best damage mitigation, and despite what everyone thinks can still put out decent dps (I normally parse about 1k - 1.2k as a MT in a9s - a11s) I hardly see the reason to take a DRK at all. The extra 100, 200 maybe dps you'd gain from taking a DRK isn't going to make much of a difference, nor should your party's dps be at the point where the MT doing amazing dps is what's making or breaking a dps check clear. Also in the light of PLD's utility capabilities, it's superior ''super'' cooldown (Hallowed), and it's raw damage mitigation it's more suited to taking repeated punches to the face than a DRK is anyway

It doesn't really matter that DRK can do a bit more dps when a PLD can make BOTH the healer AND the dps lives easier with DV, meaning your OffHealer has more time to push some dps and your main healer spends less time pulling their hair out trying to keep the MT and the rest of the party alive

As a straight OT, no you probably don't want a PLD, but given the nature of most savage content, there's at least a few tank swaps, and given that PLD is the best MT and WAR is the best OT, I'd say it's DRK that falls short of the mark if anything.

To clarify, I'm pretty sure all the tanks are viable for an MT role, I just think PLD fulfills MT better and WAR fulfills OT better

[Sarcatica]

I'd hardly say it falls short of the mark.

Given that WAR is without a doubt the best OT, and that PLD is almost definitely the strongest MT, with the strongest defensive cooldowns, the best damage mitigation, and despite what everyone thinks can still put out decent dps (I normally parse about 1k - 1.2k as a MT in a9s - a11s) I hardly see the reason to take a DRK at all. The extra 100, 200 maybe dps you'd gain from taking a DRK isn't going to make much of a difference, nor should your party's dps be at the point where the MT doing amazing dps is what's making or breaking a dps check clear. Also in the light of PLD's utility capabilities, it's superior ''super'' cooldown (Hallowed), and it's raw damage mitigation it's more suited to taking repeated punches to the face than a DRK is anyway

It doesn't really matter that DRK can do a bit more dps when a PLD can make BOTH the healer AND the dps lives easier with DV, meaning your OffHealer has more time to push some dps and your main healer spends less time pulling their hair out trying to keep the MT and the rest of the party alive

As a straight OT, no you probably don't want a PLD, but given the nature of most savage content, there's at least a few tank swaps, and given that PLD is the best MT and WAR is the best OT, I'd say it's DRK that falls short of the mark if anything.

To clarify, I'm pretty sure all the tanks are viable for an MT role, I just think PLD fulfills MT better and WAR fulfills OT better

PLD is currently in the state where DRK heavily outweighs the MT slot due to the amount of magic damage in A12S, which means that DRK can do better job being the best MT as of the current patch. I am way more surprised that I haven't even heard anyone I know openly complaining about PLD being practically a huge downgrade to DRK in this fight, except for the cleared MTs i know ofc. PLD is at 10% of DRK's total clear for A12S based on FFlogs. You are basically taxing your WAR to tank more for you because you have very limited CDs to cycle for tank busters. PLD is indeed better for A9S-A11S currently but DRK can do just fine, which eliminates the need of a PLD.

Again, in the best scenario, healers don't even need DV to top up, nice to have but not necessary. Healers can also still DPS, basically every single one can DPS safely. DRK can do more DPS for sure, PLD loses out by a good margin. 1.5k dps VS 1.3k dps is something to sweat about if you are into speedrun. Hallowed doesn't do anything too spectacular either. You pretty much use it twice and DRK can match that easily. So again, PLD is the underdog in this current patch. You can try to prove otherwise but the data denies that heavily. Unless if SE makes a fight that heavily favours PLD for physical damage, DRK still remains to the best MT overall which has been the case for 3 raid patches so far.

EDIT: Here is the data btw.

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/13#b...kKnight&page=4
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/13#b...l&spec=Paladin

[Brannigan]

I am way more surprised that I haven't even heard anyone I know openly complaining about PLD being practically a huge downgrade to DRK in this fight, except for the cleared MTs i know ofc.

Stage 7: Acceptance.

I pretty much knew I would be forced off paladin as soon as we saw the normal mode fight. I stayed on paladin for the whole time on brute justice and it probably cost us weeks (no mnk). It's a stupid situation but it's one I expect by now. Hopefully 4.0 pushes paladin and dark knight away from each other gameplay wise but closer to each other in capability. Without that it'll always be this way since raid damage is just harder to deal with than tank damage and physical tank damage is never so high that a dark knight can't take it with some adjustments to virus placement, etc.

With that said you can certainly make pld's cooldowns work for every buster with an early HG but everything is just easier with dark mind and reprisal anyway. I also don't really want to derail this thread.

Regardless of anything else they do in the expansion I really hope they cut Awareness.

[Februs]

Stage 7: Acceptance.

Basically this.

I think a lot of Pld's have come to the realization at this point that their job is just not keeping pace, and SE doesn't at all seem invested in trying to do anything to fix that. It's almost like they're always playing catch up. Each new patch leaces Pld behind, then they get minor patches later to make them temporarily viable until the next major patch puts them out to pasture again. It's been back and forth like that for the entire expansion, and it's exhausting to put up with. It's easier to just swap to War or Drk and not have to worry about it at all, rather than sticking it our for the sake of the underdog.

Regardless of anything else they do in the expansion I really hope they cut Awareness.

I think War's would weep at this, because it pairs magnificently well for them. Even Drks see a better pairing with it when using it with Dark Dance. Pld's, on the other hand, probably couldn't care less. It might be a different story if the CD timers lined up better, but right now it's not really something to bat an eyelash at.

[Brannigan]

I think War's would weep at this, because it pairs magnificently well for them. Even Drks see a better pairing with it when using it with Dark Dance. Pld's, on the other hand, probably couldn't care less. It might be a different story if the CD timers lined up better, but right now it's not really something to bat an eyelash at.

Yeah well if warriors want the skill so bad they can waste an ability slot and trait on it. Enjoy giving up Thrill of Battle I guess. Awareness is fucking trash but a few dudes on the forums pushed this idea of "WOAH IF YOU PAIR IT WITH BULWARK IT'S AMAZING." Then they turn around and complain about Foresight.

The only time it's a decent cooldown is when the devs force a situation with artificially inflated crit rate once per raid tier. You can pretty much count those on one hand. Cut it or give it to someone else.

edit: this came off a bit meaner than I intended but what people never seem to get is that it's about opportunity cost. If Awareness and its shitty trait weren't on gladiator then something else useful or interesting might be. Everyone loves to bitch about how paladin lacks identity or is bland but when you talk trash about one of their blandest and worst skills everyone is horrified for some reason.

[Brian_]

I think a lot of Pld's have come to the realization at this point that their job is just not keeping pace, and SE doesn't at all seem invested in trying to do anything to fix that. It's almost like they're always playing catch up. Each new patch leaces Pld behind, then they get minor patches later to make them temporarily viable until the next major patch puts them out to pasture again. It's been back and forth like that for the entire expansion, and it's exhausting to put up with. It's easier to just swap to War or Drk and not have to worry about it at all, rather than sticking it our for the sake of the underdog.

Seriously? PLD is better than DRK in 3 of the 4 savage fights this tier and still you get people posting garbage like this. They were also completely fine in Midas and were arguably better in 2-3 of the fights.

Yea, if your sense of self value revolves around pushing parses on fflogs, DRK is "better." But, for the purposes of clearing the content and not just vanity, PLD has been perfectly viable and basically equal to DRK post Gordias. They didn't get put out to pasture in Midas or the Creator. They crap on DRK for 3 of the fights and then when they get the short end of the stick for one fight, they're back on here crying.

With how emo PLD players are, you'd think they're the ones that'd flock to DRK.

[Reynhart]

Their allegiance to the trinity has made the game this way - they can't make content where you need particular jobs ie: something only a pld can tank, which ends up making jobs basically a spin on a role.

Yes, they can't, but PLD should need significantly less support than WAR and DRK. It means much more usage of Cleric Stance in 4-an content, and maybe solo-heal and/or solo tank setups in 8-man.

If every job can do everything but is locked in exactly the same kind of setup, there's no point of having that much jobs in the end...

[ckc22]

Yes, they can't, but PLD should need significantly less support than WAR and DRK. It means much more usage of Cleric Stance in 4-an content, and maybe solo-heal and/or solo tank setups in 8-man.

If every job can do everything but is locked in exactly the same kind of setup, there's no point of having that much jobs in the end...

I agree with everything your saying... I'm just being realistic about where things are and how they're going to stay.