RIP WHM

[Rai_Takara]

But it's also true if a buster doesn't go over your hp pool, mitigation won't be necessary. Main reason i miss 2.x raiding where stuff actually forced us to meld vit and mitigation on busters. Even t11 which was in the easiest coil tier needed virus, adlo and stoneskin to survive the phase swap after adds.

We're at the point that if a WHM is absolutely needed, AST/SCH won't be able to heal the fight. But because yoshida wants all healers to make part, we'll always have fights that don't work like 2.x ones where you needed mitigation just to survive and then raw heal to be topped off before the next buster. 3.0 and the bad decisions concerning healers is what put us in this situation.

HP mitigated is HP that doesn't need to be healed. Just because it's not necessary doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

If raids are such that heavy mitigation is needed, it would be WHM/SCH who would have trouble not AST/SCH. The only way WHM will become mandatory is if there is an encounter that requires Cure 3 to survive.

[mp-please]

HP mitigated is HP that doesn't need to be healed. Just because it's not necessary doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

I didn't said it had no value, i said that it works both ways around. As long damage doesn't go over hp values and there is no incoming damage in the next 2 gcds, any healer can outheal any buster.


Lets assume every no-tank party member has 20k hp and no crits (lets leave rng out of this, values slightly bloated to take fairy in consideration).

Aoe buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
SCH uses deployment and shields everyone for 4k hp. +Adlo +Deployment tactics
That's 14k that still needs to be healed. +Emergency tactics +Succor +Indomitability +1 aether stack
Roughly 9k hp got healed in 2 gcds, lets have the co-healer/fairy/hots handle the rest.

Adlo+deployment precast for 4k mitigated + 9k healed in 2 gcds for 2386 mp + 1 aether stack and 5 skills used. (energy drain has a rough 900 mp return so we can consider 3286 mp was used)

Again the same buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
WHM uses divine seal + cure III.
8k damage healed. 10k to go. +Divine seal +Cure III
8k damage healed. 2k to go. +Cure III
Hots/cohealer/fairy can handle the rest

16k damage healed with 3 skills, 1 precast, 3358 mp used.

Literally the same thing, mitigation can only be considered superior if we have a party with 20k hp and buster deals 22k damage for example. Also not doing for AST cause id have to do for diurnal and nocturnal. Should be pretty similar to both above anyways.

This is also what kills WHM, SCH shouldn't be able to heal a buster in 2 gcds even though it uses more ogcd skills and then we have the fights that give you 3 more more gcds to top everyone off even making the heal check more lax to non whm healers.
This was actually balanced on 2.x since succor wasn't able to heal everyone off (no ET), indo didn't exist and you couldn't shield everyone off in 2 buttons.

[Rai_Takara]

I didn't said it had no value, i said that it works both ways around. As long damage doesn't go over hp values and there is no incoming damage in the next 2 gcds, any healer can outheal any buster.


Lets assume every no-tank party member has 20k hp and no crits (lets leave rng out of this, values slightly bloated to take fairy in consideration).

Aoe buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
SCH uses deployment and shields everyone for 4k hp. +Adlo +Deployment tactics
That's 14k that still needs to be healed. +Emergency tactics +Succor +Indomitability +1 aether stack
Roughly 9k hp got healed in 2 gcds, lets have the co-healer/fairy/hots handle the rest.

Adlo+deployment precast for 4k mitigated + 9k healed in 2 gcds for 2386 mp + 1 aether stack and 5 skills used. (energy drain has a rough 900 mp return so we can consider 3286 mp was used)

Again the same buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
WHM uses divine seal + cure III.
8k damage healed. 10k to go. +Divine seal +Cure III
8k damage healed. 2k to go. +Cure III
Hots/cohealer/fairy can handle the rest

16k damage healed with 3 skills, 1 precast, 3358 mp used.

Literally the same thing, mitigation can only be considered superior if we have a party with 20k hp and buster deals 22k damage for example. Also not doing for AST cause id have to do for diurnal and nocturnal. Should be pretty similar to both above anyways.

This is also what kills WHM, SCH shouldn't be able to heal a buster in 2 gcds even though it uses more ogcd skills and then we have the fights that give you 3 more more gcds to top everyone off even making the heal check more lax to non whm healers.
This was actually balanced on 2.x since succor wasn't able to heal everyone off (no ET), indo didn't exist and you couldn't shield everyone off in 2 buttons.

Putting AST in a similar situation, we don't have a cure 3 heal bomb. We also currently don't need one. We can just mitigate it and heal less (compared to a WHM), but accomplishing the same thing as a WHM. This is done by relying on a combination of healing and mitigation rather than pure healing.

So in using your example:
18k raid wide damage to non tanks.
Disable + Collective reduces that to 14.4k damage (3.6k mitigated).
Synastry + Helios x 3 = 12.3k healed.
Collective HoT 2 ticks = 3.6k healed. (sometimes could get a 3rd tick is timed right)
Total healing done = 15.9k

3 skills used, 3180 MP used (note: basing this of my ilvl which is 247).

I think that's right, but do check my math if it doesn't look right.

There's also sustained AoE healing to consider. SCH cannot sustain heal and in certain fights like A11S, it proper cycling of mitigation and healing is needed.

[mp-please]

So in using your example:
18k raid wide damage to non tanks.
Disable + Collective reduces that to 14.4k damage (3.6k mitigated) precast
1st gcd Synastry + Helios = 4.1k healed. 10.3 to go
2nd gcd Helios = +4.1k healed, 6.2k to go which can be covered by fairy/hots/cohealer
+Collective HoT 2 ticks = 3.6k healed.
Total healing done = 15.4k, 2.6k heal that can be covered by fairy/remaining CU hots/cohealer
5 skills used, 2 precasted with 2120 MP used

There's also sustained AoE healing to consider. SCH cannot sustain heal and in certain fights like A11S, it proper cycling of mitigation and healing is needed.

My math wasn't too precise either, just changed some stuff so it's similar to what i've done (mainly the 2 gcd part since you had a extra helios cast that wasn't needed), but yea it's within what i was expecting of ast. And what you've pointed out is also true about SCH, there is no DT or ET after a rotation like the one i've pointed out.

So yea it's easy to see how all that whm has on it's favor is how readily available it is to heal burst damage. AST still needs disable+CU, SCH still needs ET+DT while WHM doesn't need exactly need DS to cure III spam but this kind of burst healing isn't exactly necessary on this patch due to it's lower difficulty nature.
If 4.0 raiding is similar to the creator, WHM will definitely need some major changes, not because it's bad, but because it's way too good.


Edit: Meanwhile a year ago.

The main issue about white mage is that burst healing starts becoming irrelevant as more people learn the fight and get overgeared for it, we could say burst healing is negatively proportional to overgear. Now it's not noticeable because back on ARR 2.0-2.1 required a lot of burst healing, but some months after SCOB got released together with soldiery tomestones people were so overgeared that burst healing became irrelevant and so the "sch can solo heal everything" began and that kept going to fcob because yoshida didn't stop and think "damn, i130 might be a bit too much for this kind of instance".

Cure III
(...) However like i said before the usefulness of cure III is negatively proportional to overgear and this game has history of throwing unnecessary gear levels to people to the point FCOB was being solo healed a month after it's release. We'll eventually get again to the point where a single medica II does the job and currently astrologian can do that with negligible losses. To add up they even gave scholars the ability to burst aoe heal with indomitability.

(...)
Once again overgear is a huge concern of mine as nobody cares about healing numbers as long healing is done and in a few months nobody will care if white mage heals for more than everyone else because that heal bonus will only result on overheal. All people will care will be "can the healer dps while it doesn't need to heal?"
SCH does their job as the summoner lite that they're, AST has no issues in maintaining the DoTs and buff everyone with their cards that has absolutely no mp cost and then we have WHM with the best single target dps that has to spend millions on melds just to hit stuff with their "best" dps which result on a huge mnd, pie and det loss compared to full i210 accessories.

It's like clockwork.

[KarstenS]

HP mitigated is HP that doesn't need to be healed. Just because it's not necessary doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

One word: Mana efficiency.

Healing through damage is in nearly every situation more mana efficent than pre shielding, as long the incoming damage < full life.

Point 1 is: Small heals and HoTs cost always less MP per HP than bigger heals/heals with shield

Point 2 is: Pre shielding is usually done by heals with shield effect (exception: Stoneskin). In the most cases this heal is going to be 100% or close to 100% overheal. -> Wasted mana.

[Rai_Takara]

One word: Mana efficiency.

Healing through damage is in nearly every situation more mana efficent than pre shielding, as long the incoming damage < full life.

Point 1 is: Small heals and HoTs cost always less MP per HP than bigger heals/heals with shield

Point 2 is: Pre shielding is usually done by heals with shield effect (exception: Stoneskin). In the most cases this heal is going to be 100% or close to 100% overheal. -> Wasted mana.

Note that the context for mitigation that I made was with diurnal AST being able to collective and disable to mitigate damage whereas a WHM cannot. In that case, while a WHM can get through heal checks through raw healing, an AST can do that with a combination of raw healing and mitigation. The following posts with math by mp-please shows that. Which is why mitigation and raw healing go hand in hand.

[technole]

It's funny how you praise synastry as a better way of healing hand split phase on A3S and yet call assize just a easier way of dealing with adds. All healers could solo heal handsplit, i've done it as WHM, i've had my static SCH do it as SCH and AST could do it as well so in the end nobody cares about who does it better or who does it harder as long it's done. WHM was usually prefered for 3.0 raiding cause it added breather to a already tight fight and once again to the handsplit phase, a lot of groups manipulated the debuffs so the WHM would be dpsing during hand split due to POM+stone III.

Exactly, we are on the same page though. As I'm not trying to make it sound like AST>WHM Gordias, and I can surely point out where skills like WHM Assize was just perfect for A4S, that is just one area amongst many. I'm just saying progression wasn't the issue with AST, just some early factors (pre-3.07), including nuances with the job that led an underwhelming perception. This is just like the DRK vs. PLD debate in clearing Gordias. Either could do it, but one was deemed the more preferred because of it's DPS and magic mitigation package.

To this day, even more so with it's last two major patch changes, I still say it's a fallacy to say it's any safer to bring WHM over AST for progression because of topics like mitigation raid utility recently talked about in this thread. A good healer can make it work.

Back on A3S, yeah like you can't use Lightspeed for DPS, while PoM you can. So A3S hands on WHM you have that skill to help solo heal, or, better yet DPS with the SCH solo healing. We've done both before in our group depending on (messing up) the Digitius swap. That is what makes this fun about being a healer main, being able to experience what works differently on other jobs.

Note that the context for mitigation that I made was with diurnal AST being able to collective and disable to mitigate damage whereas a WHM cannot. In that case, while a WHM can get through heal checks through raw healing, an AST can do that with a combination of raw healing and mitigation. The following posts with math by mp-please shows that. Which is why mitigation and raw healing go hand in hand.

Yep, and this is the point where AST makes up for the lesser healing regen potency, it's mitigation package with disable and collective used correctly, means less damage taken and less to heal. Plus disable is the only healer debuff that works on darkness damage which was abundant in Midas. SCH Virus doesn't even work for that stuff.