RIP WHM

[technole]

WHM has always been raw healing power. If it got tons of utility too why would we even have three healing jobs? WHM is #1 at what it does. Not all raids/content are going to cater to what it excels at (for obvious reasons).

AST has been excluded from a decent amount of content either because it still has the stigma from the original release, or because many people believed it was not on par with WHM. So, I just find it interesting that WHMs suddenly feel threatened. As far as I'm aware WHM has always been needed/preferred in the past. Why shouldn't AST be favored for once? (And who is to say it will even be preferred? The patch just came out today.)

White Mage has the least amount of raid utility of all the healers and hasn't been "needed" in savage since the 3.07 buffs. The job doesn't offer anything more than raw healing power and instants, which is perfectly okay. That is why raids take a Scholar as the off-healer for mitigation.

It's even a fallacy to think White Mage is a "safer" option than Astro. Diurnal Astro has better raid mitigation utility, up to 20% with Disable and CU.

[mp-please]

Diurnal Astro has better raid mitigation utility.

Why are you comparing mitigation with raw healing?

Anyways.
The only issue that makes WHM lackluster on this raid patch is that there isn't enough damage going off that needs to be healed asap like there was for gordias and midas and some trials like nidex, does that invalidates WHM? No. It only makes fights more prone to be solo healed later on and/or gives both healers more space to dps. Either way like i pointed out on the rip sch thread, nobody cares about party composition other than world 1st groups and even those went with both whm/sch and ast/sch.

I do agree that they need to do something about WHM healing too much, mainly if they're going to make raid bosses hit like wet noodles, but saying a class is dead is just plain silly. Though do say WHM is dead, i want my holy back to 240 potency without damage fall off and hundreds of mp regen ticks like ast got over the past year.

[Rai_Takara]

Why are you comparing mitigation with raw healing

They go hand in hand.

Mitigation lowers the amount you have to heal. So an AST/SCH comp can mitigate more than a WHM/SCH comp and as such, don't need as much raw healing.

[technole]

They go hand in hand.

Mitigation lowers the amount you have to heal. So an AST/SCH comp can mitigate more than a WHM/SCH comp and as such, don't need as much raw healing.

Exactly, and considering the amount of darkness damage we had to deal with in Midas, Disable was many times better than Arcanist Virus. White Mage has nothing mitigation wise for this kind of damage like Swindler Bio, Justice's J-Kick, etc. Therefore AST making healing much less, in a sense also making up for our lower regen potency.

Combined mitigation couldn't be more prevalent in A8S. Many WHM/SCH groups used tank LB3 to mitigate the heaviest J-Kick during progression. AST/SCH mitigation with CU, Disable, Adlo Spread, and Soil negated such use.

[mp-please]

They go hand in hand.

Mitigation lowers the amount you have to heal. So an AST/SCH comp can mitigate more than a WHM/SCH comp and as such, don't need as much raw healing.

But it's also true if a buster doesn't go over your hp pool, mitigation won't be necessary. Main reason i miss 2.x raiding where stuff actually forced us to meld vit and mitigation on busters. Even t11 which was in the easiest coil tier needed virus, adlo and stoneskin to survive the phase swap after adds.

We're at the point that if a WHM is absolutely needed, AST/SCH won't be able to heal the fight. But because yoshida wants all healers to make part, we'll always have fights that don't work like 2.x ones where you needed mitigation just to survive and then raw heal to be topped off before the next buster. 3.0 and the bad decisions concerning healers is what put us in this situation.

[Fevelle]

No one is asking for mitigation tools for WHM. The problem here is that with the current buff, even on progression, having a healer capable of putting HPS numbers close to WHM and adding to the raid DPS is better than bringing a WHM just for "safety". Once a fight is on farm, there is absolutely no reason to bring a WHM.

Our class lacks 'flavor' - and this is a problem since Heavensward released. WHM has always been a plain job, but by taking away exclusive traits they made it TOO plain.

Also I want to add that the argument about "WHM is a basic healer in every FF game" is not entirely true. White Mages had acess to spells like Arise (a full-life raise) and Reraise (auto-raise) that, if implemented (even in a nerfed form) could totally change the current situation.

[Rai_Takara]

But it's also true if a buster doesn't go over your hp pool, mitigation won't be necessary. Main reason i miss 2.x raiding where stuff actually forced us to meld vit and mitigation on busters. Even t11 which was in the easiest coil tier needed virus, adlo and stoneskin to survive the phase swap after adds.

We're at the point that if a WHM is absolutely needed, AST/SCH won't be able to heal the fight. But because yoshida wants all healers to make part, we'll always have fights that don't work like 2.x ones where you needed mitigation just to survive and then raw heal to be topped off before the next buster. 3.0 and the bad decisions concerning healers is what put us in this situation.

HP mitigated is HP that doesn't need to be healed. Just because it's not necessary doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

If raids are such that heavy mitigation is needed, it would be WHM/SCH who would have trouble not AST/SCH. The only way WHM will become mandatory is if there is an encounter that requires Cure 3 to survive.

[mp-please]

HP mitigated is HP that doesn't need to be healed. Just because it's not necessary doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

I didn't said it had no value, i said that it works both ways around. As long damage doesn't go over hp values and there is no incoming damage in the next 2 gcds, any healer can outheal any buster.


Lets assume every no-tank party member has 20k hp and no crits (lets leave rng out of this, values slightly bloated to take fairy in consideration).

Aoe buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
SCH uses deployment and shields everyone for 4k hp. +Adlo +Deployment tactics
That's 14k that still needs to be healed. +Emergency tactics +Succor +Indomitability +1 aether stack
Roughly 9k hp got healed in 2 gcds, lets have the co-healer/fairy/hots handle the rest.

Adlo+deployment precast for 4k mitigated + 9k healed in 2 gcds for 2386 mp + 1 aether stack and 5 skills used. (energy drain has a rough 900 mp return so we can consider 3286 mp was used)

Again the same buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
WHM uses divine seal + cure III.
8k damage healed. 10k to go. +Divine seal +Cure III
8k damage healed. 2k to go. +Cure III
Hots/cohealer/fairy can handle the rest

16k damage healed with 3 skills, 1 precast, 3358 mp used.

Literally the same thing, mitigation can only be considered superior if we have a party with 20k hp and buster deals 22k damage for example. Also not doing for AST cause id have to do for diurnal and nocturnal. Should be pretty similar to both above anyways.

This is also what kills WHM, SCH shouldn't be able to heal a buster in 2 gcds even though it uses more ogcd skills and then we have the fights that give you 3 more more gcds to top everyone off even making the heal check more lax to non whm healers.
This was actually balanced on 2.x since succor wasn't able to heal everyone off (no ET), indo didn't exist and you couldn't shield everyone off in 2 buttons.

[Lone-wolfe-02]

Whm may have higher healing potencies but Ast has something far more desired and that's dps hence world first clears with Ast,Sch

[Rai_Takara]

I didn't said it had no value, i said that it works both ways around. As long damage doesn't go over hp values and there is no incoming damage in the next 2 gcds, any healer can outheal any buster.


Lets assume every no-tank party member has 20k hp and no crits (lets leave rng out of this, values slightly bloated to take fairy in consideration).

Aoe buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
SCH uses deployment and shields everyone for 4k hp. +Adlo +Deployment tactics
That's 14k that still needs to be healed. +Emergency tactics +Succor +Indomitability +1 aether stack
Roughly 9k hp got healed in 2 gcds, lets have the co-healer/fairy/hots handle the rest.

Adlo+deployment precast for 4k mitigated + 9k healed in 2 gcds for 2386 mp + 1 aether stack and 5 skills used. (energy drain has a rough 900 mp return so we can consider 3286 mp was used)

Again the same buster drops in and deals 18k dmg.
WHM uses divine seal + cure III.
8k damage healed. 10k to go. +Divine seal +Cure III
8k damage healed. 2k to go. +Cure III
Hots/cohealer/fairy can handle the rest

16k damage healed with 3 skills, 1 precast, 3358 mp used.

Literally the same thing, mitigation can only be considered superior if we have a party with 20k hp and buster deals 22k damage for example. Also not doing for AST cause id have to do for diurnal and nocturnal. Should be pretty similar to both above anyways.

This is also what kills WHM, SCH shouldn't be able to heal a buster in 2 gcds even though it uses more ogcd skills and then we have the fights that give you 3 more more gcds to top everyone off even making the heal check more lax to non whm healers.
This was actually balanced on 2.x since succor wasn't able to heal everyone off (no ET), indo didn't exist and you couldn't shield everyone off in 2 buttons.

Putting AST in a similar situation, we don't have a cure 3 heal bomb. We also currently don't need one. We can just mitigate it and heal less (compared to a WHM), but accomplishing the same thing as a WHM. This is done by relying on a combination of healing and mitigation rather than pure healing.

So in using your example:
18k raid wide damage to non tanks.
Disable + Collective reduces that to 14.4k damage (3.6k mitigated).
Synastry + Helios x 3 = 12.3k healed.
Collective HoT 2 ticks = 3.6k healed. (sometimes could get a 3rd tick is timed right)
Total healing done = 15.9k

3 skills used, 3180 MP used (note: basing this of my ilvl which is 247).

I think that's right, but do check my math if it doesn't look right.

There's also sustained AoE healing to consider. SCH cannot sustain heal and in certain fights like A11S, it proper cycling of mitigation and healing is needed.