Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Chessala]

I have to say, I am not surprised by any of his replies. If they truly wanted to change character progression, it would have shown by now. I don't understand how people could not have seen it coming.

That being said, this game could take many routes to improve without changing character progression in itself. One of them is giving people more options to reply old content - solo/duo mode for dungeons WITH EXP AT LEVEL is one. Dungeon scaling is another. Make it interesting to re-play dungeons, that doesn't mean remoddeling an old dungeon for a hard version. Personally, I would LOVE challenging the leveling dungeons t a harder difficulty while I level for higher exp rewards.

Also, get rid of gating content, abolish the "new tome has a 450 limit" system and let people grind freely. If I want to grind 9000 scripts in a week, let me. The artificial grind limits only make people play less. People will complain eventually anyway....

Also, give dungeons more variety than run ahead and kill mobs in a row...make people think, implement puzzles, riddles, random traps....possibilities are limitless without changing char progression

[Reynhart]

Also, give dungeons more variety than run ahead and kill mobs in a row...make people think, implement puzzles, riddles, random traps....possibilities are limitless without changing char progression

They could make dungeons less linear. After all, there's no reason for a "city" to be a single narrow path. They could make several objectives, and you need to clear some of them to open the room to the last boss. And the more objectives you clear the more reward you'll get...
In fact Toto-Rak 1.x was like this.

I wonder if you can make randomly generated dungeons (not as limited as PotD), like you have in Draqon Quest IX. This way, even if you do neverreap over and over, you might venture into a new path. And a set of several bosses, so that non-relevant final boss aren't always the same. (i.e Keeper Of the Lake will always make you fight Midgardsormr, but Cutter's Cry may change from Chimera)

[Lulu89]

Ehh guess subs have dropped alot then.

Not so much, you see yosh is not talking about pre server. He's talking about over all. For player that will not move off big server they will be fucked even @ 37000 room after just a few months. Smaller server will still have many if not 1000s of room left over after a year. There is no way for them to give everyone a room if they put a ## on it.

[Lulu89]

Nope im not like other people who need to keep getting there 2cents in.

And.....-_- you just did.....

[Lulu89]

Except there have been many people stating they are active and haven't even cleared through 2.55 yet.

There are currently 700ish players logged into balmung under lvl 60. Not going to try to determine the number of 60 players because that would take way too long.

You for got to count the players in other worlds..(Dungens,PotD, guildhest...and other crap) that the server won't count as "online" ^^/

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'd say, first : Fun. And second, you're more likely to develop a connection with your character if you build it like you want. And less likely to quit a game where you connected with your character. And, for me, character progression is much more interesting that gear progression, because it's permanent. You don't have to start from scratch every 7 months.

Fun is subjective. I, personally, couldn't care less what my stats are, so long as they are optimal. Nonetheless, you are presuming a lot of horizontal progression's viability long term. Would you stay subbed if you could customize stats or abilities knowing full well that unless you attempted extreme primals or savage, such choices are completely meaningless? If you're already bored, how would a system with absolutely no impact change that?

What's relevant to you might not be for someone else. Is Gold Saucer relevant ? Lords Of Verminion ? Are odd patches dungeons relevant, considering most people probably had better gear from the prior even patch ? Is a new tank or healer relevant for someone who only plays DPS ?

No, the system is irrelevant because it has no impact on content outside progression. You may be able to poke around with some builds, but content outside the aforementioned will die easily no matter what you do. Which has been my point. While it may be "fun", I sincerely doubt it will keep people's interest because it doesn't actually impact anything.

By the time most groups really tackles Savage, the gear obtained would widely make up for PLD's lack of damage. And it was stupid in FFXI too. The shift in jobs changed every few months with constant adjustment, yet, once a job received its stigma, it would stay that way forever...

No, it didn't. PLD was largely ignored throughout all of Gordias, hence why physical damage fights and specific buffs happened. The community deemed it the worst tank and most raid groups prioritized WAR/DRK. Not all, of course-- there are always outliners. The point remains in high end raiding, you will be expected to optimize. In anything else? Who cares? It's all faceroll for the most part. If anything needs be changed, it's this.

Then why every party composition is not exactly the same ?
...and the top players will love having so much theorycrafting to do to find the "best builds"

Because jobs have wholly unique rotations, animations and etc. Changing the specs on Unmend or Heavy Thrust are only going to influence numbers. If one job does languish behind (PLD, and to a lesser extent, MNK, in 3.0 to 3.2), they won't be anywhere near as frequent. Character builds inevitably come down to numbers. And once that theorycrafting has been ironed out, every Youtuber will recommend the "best" build. A prime example of this was STR tanking. Once a niche alternative for raiders. It eventually became the expected norm that people advised newer tanks, especially WARs, to learn. Could you still use VIT? Yep. Did people? Nope. The devs had to completely overhaul VIT just to make people use it again.

If I could specialize my DRK in AoE and my WAR in single target, I'd use one for dungeons and one for raids. Someone else might do the opposite depending on the job they want to bring in a raid. If I'd use one job for training, I'd chose a safe build, and my "clear" job will aim for maximum efficiency...If a build offers a fun and special gimmick, I'd use it for fun when I solo, etc...

And once the aforementioned theorycrafting worked out x build brought the highest overall optimization? You'd see groups begin to demand that build more. Regardless, your fun basically means overhauling the entire game in an area I, personally, don't feel it struggles in. If they are going to shift to character builds, then the game itself needs to support that style of play. Being able to single target Unmend dungeon mobs for slightly higher DPS isn't interesting, at least not to me. I can already pull half the run and murder them all.

[Androir]

I just miss a lot of original final fantasy stuff here. all the storry was only about a meteor which was designed to make a end to a miss created game(to write it firendly). Then The ascians and this dimensions(which are nothing lesser then other ff games) are leaving questions: they destroy the dimensions so ff will be destroyed and 14 be alive? or will this area be destroyed to be revived in another dimension? This ascians storry is making no sense.

Then the missing original skill system and original bestia/primae.
The last huge minus is the lazy voice over. Not even finished but already a new content patch.
And the ones which did this are even mentioned i the credits. For a unfinished/half assed job.

This long maintenance: couldnt a better patch management(more often fixing and ven listening to the cmunity 1x) prevent this? How can we know that it works now if you take months for even 1 wrong word to re translate? Problem here? officials are around: as many as you can see here. 0!
They do live letters etc. but they DONT talk or listen to their customers.

[Reynhart]

Fun is subjective. I, personally, couldn't care less what my stats are, so long as they are optimal.

So you’d just chose to follow the optimal build. Me doing a more personal build will have no effect on you. Unless you’re one of those people that thinks “optimal or worthless”…in that case, first, you’re wrong, and second, I’ll just won’t play with that kind of players. Which is good, since Duty Finder and Raid Finder allow me just that.

Would you stay subbed if you could customize stats or abilities knowing full well that unless you attempted extreme primals or savage, such choices are completely meaningless? If you're already bored, how would a system with absolutely no impact change that?

Would you stay subbed if they add several jobs, knowing full that even in extreme primals or savage, party composition doesn’t matter ? Would you stay subbed to gather every BiS item, knowing that, even in extreme primals or savage, entry gear is far enough to clear ?

No, the system is irrelevant because it has no impact on content outside progression.

You absolutely don’t know that, in fact. You have no idea how far they could put a talent system in this game.

No, it didn't. PLD was largely ignored throughout all of Gordias, hence why physical damage fights and specific buffs happened.

Just type “Gordias Savage PLD” on YouTube, you’ll see a lot of 1-year old video of Gordias clear with Savage, before any adjustments. People really tend to overdramatize PLD’s previous position.

Character builds inevitably come down to numbers. And once that theorycrafting has been ironed out, every Youtuber will recommend the "best" build.

Actually, no, I’m sure you can make plenty of changes out of any DPS consideration.

You'd see groups begin to demand that build more.

Yes, that’s why you can’t do Savage unless you’re BiS already (Hint : you can)
That’s also why you can’t do Savage unless you fit in the perfect party setup (Hint: you can)
Oh, and by the way, you don’t demand anything in Raid Finder.

Being able to single target Unmend dungeon mobs for slightly higher DPS isn't interesting, at least not to me.

I’m pretty sure a team of professional game designer can find far more interesting ideas.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So you’d just chose to follow the optimal build. Me doing a more personal build will have no effect on you. Unless you’re one of those people that thinks “optimal or worthless”…in that case, first, you’re wrong, and second, I’ll just won’t play with that kind of players. Which is good, since Duty Finder and Raid Finder allow me just that.

Actually, it would. Since a system like they would basically sap a massive amount of their resources. And no, I do not. However, if you go into Savage with a sub-optimal build and aren't able to keep us with everyone else, I'll ask you to change.

Would you stay subbed if they add several jobs, knowing full that even in extreme primals or savage, party composition doesn’t matter ? Would you stay subbed to gather every BiS item, knowing that, even in extreme primals or savage, entry gear is far enough to clear ?

Those aren't the same comparisons. New jobs are fundamentally different despite some similarities in their role. You aren't going to play a Dark Knight or Astro the same as Warrior or White Mage. Character builds inherently lack the same versatility because it makes little from a cost perspective develop abilities that may never get touched. And if you have enough unique concepts, you may as well convert them into an actual role, which will be of greater interest to the average player.

You absolutely don’t know that, in fact. You have no idea how far they could put a talent system in this game.

Yes, I do, because content in this game is easy. You can make the most in-depth customization in MMO history. If the vast majority of content can be facerolled, it becomes meaningless as every single build you make will achieve the exact same results. Compare it to FFVIII's junction system. I can break it within a few hours, thus the whole system becomes pointless.

Just type “Gordias Savage PLD” on YouTube, you’ll see a lot of 1-year old video of Gordias clear with Savage, before any adjustments. People really tend to overdramatize PLD’s previous position.

And? I explicitly said there were outliners. That doesn't mean they weren't still decidedly third place and frequently ignored.

Yes, that’s why you can’t do Savage unless you’re BiS already (Hint : you can)
That’s also why you can’t do Savage unless you fit in the perfect party setup (Hint: you can)
Oh, and by the way, you don’t demand anything in Raid Finder.

You can also queue in as a premade with any composition you fancy. Doesn't mean it will work. The discussion here is specifically sub-optimal builds. You are intentionally gimping yourself for no other reason than you prefer it. Maybe you'll find a group who doesn't care, but chances are you will asked to play at an optimal level when Savage is relevant. Once again, look at STR vs. VIT or FFXI as a whole. The community decided which were better and it gradually became the norm. Blade & Soul and other games have similar issues.

[Reynhart]

Actually, it would. Since a system like they would basically sap a massive amount of their resources.

Lord Of Verminion and Diadem are so much more useful to this game, sure

And no, I do not. However, if you go into Savage with a sub-optimal build and aren't able to keep us with everyone else, I'll ask you to change.

I won't level another job to please you, whatever you think of it. Besides, what people requires from jobs is waaaay before you even see people actually play, so it's stupid.

And? I explicitly said there were outliners. That doesn't mean they weren't still decidedly third place and frequently ignored.

Calling "outliners" teams that cleared Gordias 1 after a week and as server first is really funny.

You can also queue in as a premade with any composition you fancy. Doesn't mean it will work.

Actually it does. This is what differs between japan and NA community. They train a lot together and clear content in the Duty Finder. They don't ragequit when seeing a first time bonus day 1 or after a wipe.

The community decided which were better and it gradually became the norm. Blade & Soul and other games have similar issues.

No, the few elite teams end with something that works for them, and all the following wanabee copies them without understanding their real status on progression.

FFXI as a whole

Yeah, I know FFXI, and I had no issue progressing as a "useless" Puppetmaster or a "lol"DRG. People just didn't know how to be good with those jobs...