Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Reynhart]

Fun is subjective. I, personally, couldn't care less what my stats are, so long as they are optimal.

So you’d just chose to follow the optimal build. Me doing a more personal build will have no effect on you. Unless you’re one of those people that thinks “optimal or worthless”…in that case, first, you’re wrong, and second, I’ll just won’t play with that kind of players. Which is good, since Duty Finder and Raid Finder allow me just that.

Would you stay subbed if you could customize stats or abilities knowing full well that unless you attempted extreme primals or savage, such choices are completely meaningless? If you're already bored, how would a system with absolutely no impact change that?

Would you stay subbed if they add several jobs, knowing full that even in extreme primals or savage, party composition doesn’t matter ? Would you stay subbed to gather every BiS item, knowing that, even in extreme primals or savage, entry gear is far enough to clear ?

No, the system is irrelevant because it has no impact on content outside progression.

You absolutely don’t know that, in fact. You have no idea how far they could put a talent system in this game.

No, it didn't. PLD was largely ignored throughout all of Gordias, hence why physical damage fights and specific buffs happened.

Just type “Gordias Savage PLD” on YouTube, you’ll see a lot of 1-year old video of Gordias clear with Savage, before any adjustments. People really tend to overdramatize PLD’s previous position.

Character builds inevitably come down to numbers. And once that theorycrafting has been ironed out, every Youtuber will recommend the "best" build.

Actually, no, I’m sure you can make plenty of changes out of any DPS consideration.

You'd see groups begin to demand that build more.

Yes, that’s why you can’t do Savage unless you’re BiS already (Hint : you can)
That’s also why you can’t do Savage unless you fit in the perfect party setup (Hint: you can)
Oh, and by the way, you don’t demand anything in Raid Finder.

Being able to single target Unmend dungeon mobs for slightly higher DPS isn't interesting, at least not to me.

I’m pretty sure a team of professional game designer can find far more interesting ideas.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So you’d just chose to follow the optimal build. Me doing a more personal build will have no effect on you. Unless you’re one of those people that thinks “optimal or worthless”…in that case, first, you’re wrong, and second, I’ll just won’t play with that kind of players. Which is good, since Duty Finder and Raid Finder allow me just that.

Actually, it would. Since a system like they would basically sap a massive amount of their resources. And no, I do not. However, if you go into Savage with a sub-optimal build and aren't able to keep us with everyone else, I'll ask you to change.

Would you stay subbed if they add several jobs, knowing full that even in extreme primals or savage, party composition doesn’t matter ? Would you stay subbed to gather every BiS item, knowing that, even in extreme primals or savage, entry gear is far enough to clear ?

Those aren't the same comparisons. New jobs are fundamentally different despite some similarities in their role. You aren't going to play a Dark Knight or Astro the same as Warrior or White Mage. Character builds inherently lack the same versatility because it makes little from a cost perspective develop abilities that may never get touched. And if you have enough unique concepts, you may as well convert them into an actual role, which will be of greater interest to the average player.

You absolutely don’t know that, in fact. You have no idea how far they could put a talent system in this game.

Yes, I do, because content in this game is easy. You can make the most in-depth customization in MMO history. If the vast majority of content can be facerolled, it becomes meaningless as every single build you make will achieve the exact same results. Compare it to FFVIII's junction system. I can break it within a few hours, thus the whole system becomes pointless.

Just type “Gordias Savage PLD” on YouTube, you’ll see a lot of 1-year old video of Gordias clear with Savage, before any adjustments. People really tend to overdramatize PLD’s previous position.

And? I explicitly said there were outliners. That doesn't mean they weren't still decidedly third place and frequently ignored.

Yes, that’s why you can’t do Savage unless you’re BiS already (Hint : you can)
That’s also why you can’t do Savage unless you fit in the perfect party setup (Hint: you can)
Oh, and by the way, you don’t demand anything in Raid Finder.

You can also queue in as a premade with any composition you fancy. Doesn't mean it will work. The discussion here is specifically sub-optimal builds. You are intentionally gimping yourself for no other reason than you prefer it. Maybe you'll find a group who doesn't care, but chances are you will asked to play at an optimal level when Savage is relevant. Once again, look at STR vs. VIT or FFXI as a whole. The community decided which were better and it gradually became the norm. Blade & Soul and other games have similar issues.

[Reynhart]

Actually, it would. Since a system like they would basically sap a massive amount of their resources.

Lord Of Verminion and Diadem are so much more useful to this game, sure

And no, I do not. However, if you go into Savage with a sub-optimal build and aren't able to keep us with everyone else, I'll ask you to change.

I won't level another job to please you, whatever you think of it. Besides, what people requires from jobs is waaaay before you even see people actually play, so it's stupid.

And? I explicitly said there were outliners. That doesn't mean they weren't still decidedly third place and frequently ignored.

Calling "outliners" teams that cleared Gordias 1 after a week and as server first is really funny.

You can also queue in as a premade with any composition you fancy. Doesn't mean it will work.

Actually it does. This is what differs between japan and NA community. They train a lot together and clear content in the Duty Finder. They don't ragequit when seeing a first time bonus day 1 or after a wipe.

The community decided which were better and it gradually became the norm. Blade & Soul and other games have similar issues.

No, the few elite teams end with something that works for them, and all the following wanabee copies them without understanding their real status on progression.

FFXI as a whole

Yeah, I know FFXI, and I had no issue progressing as a "useless" Puppetmaster or a "lol"DRG. People just didn't know how to be good with those jobs...

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Lord Of Verminion and Diadem are so much more useful to this game, sure

Apples and oranges. Overhauling the entire character progression system is a far more significant undertaking than LoV or Diadem. And if it flopped like those did. Congratulations, you just ruined your expansion.

I won't level another job to please you, whatever you think of it. Besides, what people requires from jobs is waaaay before you even see people actually play, so it's stupid.

Did I ever say that? Please don't put words in my mouth. I said if you willfully chose a character build that proved inferior, and it held us back. I would ask you to change because there are seven other players who want to progress and "I like this better" isn't a good reason. Character builds are not comparable to whole Jobs.

Calling "outliners" teams that cleared Gordias 1 after a week and as server first is really funny.

Sigh. Let's say, 100 groups cleared Gordias. If 80% used WAR/DRK, then PLD is the outliner regardless of when those groups cleared. Regardless, you can point to first week clears all you fancy. The community didn't bring PLD nearly as often. A similar occurrence happened with AST, hence why Square basically buffed them through the moon. They wouldn't do that if people were using AST more.

No, the few elite teams end with something that works for them, and all the following wanabee copies them without understanding their real status on progression.

... you essentially just proved my point. Even if this were entirely correct. That still demonstrates favoritism towards what is deemed better. You keep glossing over or straight up ignoring my references to other games, where this exact thing happens. People tend to gravitate to optimized builds, especially with how prolific guide makers are now. You can complain about it, however the devs have to consider if implementing such a system would actually be beneficial.

[Balipu]

Apples and oranges. Overhauling the entire character progression system is a far more significant undertaking than LoV or Diadem. And if it flopped like those did. Congratulations, you just ruined your expansion.



if you willfully chose a character build that proved inferior, and it held us back. I would ask you to change because there are seven other players who want to progress and "I like this better" isn't a good reason..



Sigh. Let's say, 100 groups cleared Gordias. If 80% used WAR/DRK, then PLD is the outliner regardless of when those groups cleared. No need to remove the current one. Second: It might be bigger than LoV or Diadem, but it might not be bigger than Lov AND Diadem.
No need to remove the current one.



You can complain about it, however the devs have to consider if implementing such a system would actually be beneficial.

1. Well, first: builds don't have to overhaul character progression. It can just be a bonus system added to what we already have. Second: It might be bigger than LoV or Diadem, but it might not be bigger than Lov AND Diadem.

2. It won't hold YOU back, because he isn't interested in doing content with you. You will use the optimal builds for savage raiding with your static and he will use his build for anything else. And so will I. If we get builds, I will figure out the craziest combination and use it for fun. I know my limits. I will never be able to clear a savage raid boss. So I don't give a damn about optimizing myself for raiding.

3. But time really does matter. There's a reason the same people tend to do server first and world first clears. They are the best. So player skill is still the most important. But this still assumes that people who pick sub optimal builds for fun are all interested in raiding. No reason to assume that is the case.

4. Beneficial to whom? Maybe not everyone, but there are various different kinds of players. Also we are still assuming that a player would be locked into one build. Even if there is an optimal build, we can maybe have a solo build a pvp build and a pve build to switch around. And a fourth that focuses on sylph magic and goblin tech for the lulz.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

I am not denying it may be fun to mess around with odd or downright silly combinations, but the developers have to consider the overall impact it will have on the game. Compare it to our rotation. How often does your typical duty finder player follow it? That information tells me those same players are liable to ignore character stat or ability customization for the same reason they do not bother improving their rotation. Content outside progression is simply too easy, thus there is little encouragement to experiment even if the tools were added. I would rather see changes done to make what we already have better balanced and less mindless before anything else. Bonuses are essentially numbers. If say, one gear set gave a TP bonus while one gave a damage buff. The latter is generally better because proper TP management means you'll be fine. Think of it like AST's cards. Balance is more or less the only card you really care about because it's just flat out better. Unless you're bored and feel like making your Dragoon or Monk cry.