Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Bourne_Endeavor]

People really tend to ovethink on this.
"Optimization" is not as mandatory as you think. Most people don't even do raid, let alone "optimal" raid. Save that for the world 1st race, because for the other groups, it doesn't matter.
In 3.0-3.1, bringing a PLD in Gordias was not optimal, yet, perfectly viable for raid groups.

Moreover, the game puts more and more emphasis on random groups, where you can't chose the people you'll run with. We already have the Duty Finder, but the Raid Finder will take care of every endgame content. They said that the Creator won't have group mechanics, and thus, will require less coordination. So, running without any required build will be an option for those who want.

Besides, you can add several builds with purpose, by doing synergy builds. For example, one WAR build might be better IF you have a NIN in your party, another, IF you have a MNK, etc...there won't be one absolute build.
For example, WHM could chose a trait where it recovers a fraction of what he heals. Since WAR receive higher healing, they'd recover more MP than with a PLD or a DRK. They could have a trait to make their HoT refill HP each time the target uses MP. Great when paired with DRK, BLM and SMN, but useless with MNK and DRG, etc...

And, again, 95% of the playerbase don't care about Savage, so they could build their character without requiring optimisation. They'll just chose based on favored gameplay elements.

I'm well aware raiding is niche. That wasn't my argument. I am asking what purpose would overhauling the entire character infrastructure serve in content you can beat with three buttons? What you're asking for would essentially be the whole expansion's main focus. And what does it accomplish? Okay, we can tweak and customize our stats or abilities more... but none of it matters because the content outside of raiding you can faceroll over without much difficulty. While I'm not against the idea necessarily, I do not want the devs to dedicate ample resources to a feature rendered largely irrelevant.

Viable yes, but PLD suffered such significant decline prior to 3.2, SE specifically went out of their way to design fights around their strengths. People simply wouldn't take them on a given average. At progression level, you will inevitably see the same. We're already seeing it with the amount of groups dropping WHM for AST now. It happened in FFXI, wherein if you preferred a certain sub-optimal sub class, you weren't likely to be invited for high end content.

In theory, yes. But people will eventually determine what provides the highest DPS and expect it.

And again, what's the point then? Say your examples were implemented. When would you ever need to switch builds? No content outside raiding is remotely challenging.

[Reynhart]

I'm well aware raiding is niche. That wasn't my argument. I am asking what purpose would overhauling the entire character infrastructure serve in content you can beat with three buttons?

I'd say, first : Fun. And second, you're more likely to develop a connection with your character if you build it like you want. And less likely to quit a game where you connected with your character. And, for me, character progression is much more interesting that gear progression, because it's permanent. You don't have to start from scratch every 7 months.

While I'm not against the idea necessarily, I do not want the devs to dedicate ample resources to a feature rendered largely irrelevant.

What's relevant to you might not be for someone else. Is Gold Saucer relevant ? Lords Of Verminion ? Are odd patches dungeons relevant, considering most people probably had better gear from the prior even patch ? Is a new tank or healer relevant for someone who only plays DPS ?

At progression level, you will inevitably see the same. We're already seeing it with the amount of groups dropping WHM for AST now. It happened in FFXI, wherein if you preferred a certain sub-optimal sub class, you weren't likely to be invited for high end content.

By the time most groups really tackles Savage, the gear obtained would widely make up for PLD's lack of damage. And it was stupid in FFXI too. The shift in jobs changed every few months with constant adjustment, yet, once a job received its stigma, it would stay that way forever...

In theory, yes. But people will eventually determine what provides the highest DPS and expect it.

Then why every party composition is not exactly the same ?
...and the top players will love having so much theorycrafting to do to find the "best builds"

And again, what's the point then? Say your examples were implemented. When would you ever need to switch builds? No content outside raiding is remotely challenging.

If I could specialize my DRK in AoE and my WAR in single target, I'd use one for dungeons and one for raids. Someone else might do the opposite depending on the job they want to bring in a raid. If I'd use one job for training, I'd chose a safe build, and my "clear" job will aim for maximum efficiency...If a build offers a fun and special gimmick, I'd use it for fun when I solo, etc...

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'd say, first : Fun. And second, you're more likely to develop a connection with your character if you build it like you want. And less likely to quit a game where you connected with your character. And, for me, character progression is much more interesting that gear progression, because it's permanent. You don't have to start from scratch every 7 months.

Fun is subjective. I, personally, couldn't care less what my stats are, so long as they are optimal. Nonetheless, you are presuming a lot of horizontal progression's viability long term. Would you stay subbed if you could customize stats or abilities knowing full well that unless you attempted extreme primals or savage, such choices are completely meaningless? If you're already bored, how would a system with absolutely no impact change that?

What's relevant to you might not be for someone else. Is Gold Saucer relevant ? Lords Of Verminion ? Are odd patches dungeons relevant, considering most people probably had better gear from the prior even patch ? Is a new tank or healer relevant for someone who only plays DPS ?

No, the system is irrelevant because it has no impact on content outside progression. You may be able to poke around with some builds, but content outside the aforementioned will die easily no matter what you do. Which has been my point. While it may be "fun", I sincerely doubt it will keep people's interest because it doesn't actually impact anything.

By the time most groups really tackles Savage, the gear obtained would widely make up for PLD's lack of damage. And it was stupid in FFXI too. The shift in jobs changed every few months with constant adjustment, yet, once a job received its stigma, it would stay that way forever...

No, it didn't. PLD was largely ignored throughout all of Gordias, hence why physical damage fights and specific buffs happened. The community deemed it the worst tank and most raid groups prioritized WAR/DRK. Not all, of course-- there are always outliners. The point remains in high end raiding, you will be expected to optimize. In anything else? Who cares? It's all faceroll for the most part. If anything needs be changed, it's this.

Then why every party composition is not exactly the same ?
...and the top players will love having so much theorycrafting to do to find the "best builds"

Because jobs have wholly unique rotations, animations and etc. Changing the specs on Unmend or Heavy Thrust are only going to influence numbers. If one job does languish behind (PLD, and to a lesser extent, MNK, in 3.0 to 3.2), they won't be anywhere near as frequent. Character builds inevitably come down to numbers. And once that theorycrafting has been ironed out, every Youtuber will recommend the "best" build. A prime example of this was STR tanking. Once a niche alternative for raiders. It eventually became the expected norm that people advised newer tanks, especially WARs, to learn. Could you still use VIT? Yep. Did people? Nope. The devs had to completely overhaul VIT just to make people use it again.

If I could specialize my DRK in AoE and my WAR in single target, I'd use one for dungeons and one for raids. Someone else might do the opposite depending on the job they want to bring in a raid. If I'd use one job for training, I'd chose a safe build, and my "clear" job will aim for maximum efficiency...If a build offers a fun and special gimmick, I'd use it for fun when I solo, etc...

And once the aforementioned theorycrafting worked out x build brought the highest overall optimization? You'd see groups begin to demand that build more. Regardless, your fun basically means overhauling the entire game in an area I, personally, don't feel it struggles in. If they are going to shift to character builds, then the game itself needs to support that style of play. Being able to single target Unmend dungeon mobs for slightly higher DPS isn't interesting, at least not to me. I can already pull half the run and murder them all.

[Reynhart]

Fun is subjective. I, personally, couldn't care less what my stats are, so long as they are optimal.

So you’d just chose to follow the optimal build. Me doing a more personal build will have no effect on you. Unless you’re one of those people that thinks “optimal or worthless”…in that case, first, you’re wrong, and second, I’ll just won’t play with that kind of players. Which is good, since Duty Finder and Raid Finder allow me just that.

Would you stay subbed if you could customize stats or abilities knowing full well that unless you attempted extreme primals or savage, such choices are completely meaningless? If you're already bored, how would a system with absolutely no impact change that?

Would you stay subbed if they add several jobs, knowing full that even in extreme primals or savage, party composition doesn’t matter ? Would you stay subbed to gather every BiS item, knowing that, even in extreme primals or savage, entry gear is far enough to clear ?

No, the system is irrelevant because it has no impact on content outside progression.

You absolutely don’t know that, in fact. You have no idea how far they could put a talent system in this game.

No, it didn't. PLD was largely ignored throughout all of Gordias, hence why physical damage fights and specific buffs happened.

Just type “Gordias Savage PLD” on YouTube, you’ll see a lot of 1-year old video of Gordias clear with Savage, before any adjustments. People really tend to overdramatize PLD’s previous position.

Character builds inevitably come down to numbers. And once that theorycrafting has been ironed out, every Youtuber will recommend the "best" build.

Actually, no, I’m sure you can make plenty of changes out of any DPS consideration.

You'd see groups begin to demand that build more.

Yes, that’s why you can’t do Savage unless you’re BiS already (Hint : you can)
That’s also why you can’t do Savage unless you fit in the perfect party setup (Hint: you can)
Oh, and by the way, you don’t demand anything in Raid Finder.

Being able to single target Unmend dungeon mobs for slightly higher DPS isn't interesting, at least not to me.

I’m pretty sure a team of professional game designer can find far more interesting ideas.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So you’d just chose to follow the optimal build. Me doing a more personal build will have no effect on you. Unless you’re one of those people that thinks “optimal or worthless”…in that case, first, you’re wrong, and second, I’ll just won’t play with that kind of players. Which is good, since Duty Finder and Raid Finder allow me just that.

Actually, it would. Since a system like they would basically sap a massive amount of their resources. And no, I do not. However, if you go into Savage with a sub-optimal build and aren't able to keep us with everyone else, I'll ask you to change.

Would you stay subbed if they add several jobs, knowing full that even in extreme primals or savage, party composition doesn’t matter ? Would you stay subbed to gather every BiS item, knowing that, even in extreme primals or savage, entry gear is far enough to clear ?

Those aren't the same comparisons. New jobs are fundamentally different despite some similarities in their role. You aren't going to play a Dark Knight or Astro the same as Warrior or White Mage. Character builds inherently lack the same versatility because it makes little from a cost perspective develop abilities that may never get touched. And if you have enough unique concepts, you may as well convert them into an actual role, which will be of greater interest to the average player.

You absolutely don’t know that, in fact. You have no idea how far they could put a talent system in this game.

Yes, I do, because content in this game is easy. You can make the most in-depth customization in MMO history. If the vast majority of content can be facerolled, it becomes meaningless as every single build you make will achieve the exact same results. Compare it to FFVIII's junction system. I can break it within a few hours, thus the whole system becomes pointless.

Just type “Gordias Savage PLD” on YouTube, you’ll see a lot of 1-year old video of Gordias clear with Savage, before any adjustments. People really tend to overdramatize PLD’s previous position.

And? I explicitly said there were outliners. That doesn't mean they weren't still decidedly third place and frequently ignored.

Yes, that’s why you can’t do Savage unless you’re BiS already (Hint : you can)
That’s also why you can’t do Savage unless you fit in the perfect party setup (Hint: you can)
Oh, and by the way, you don’t demand anything in Raid Finder.

You can also queue in as a premade with any composition you fancy. Doesn't mean it will work. The discussion here is specifically sub-optimal builds. You are intentionally gimping yourself for no other reason than you prefer it. Maybe you'll find a group who doesn't care, but chances are you will asked to play at an optimal level when Savage is relevant. Once again, look at STR vs. VIT or FFXI as a whole. The community decided which were better and it gradually became the norm. Blade & Soul and other games have similar issues.

[Reynhart]

Actually, it would. Since a system like they would basically sap a massive amount of their resources.

Lord Of Verminion and Diadem are so much more useful to this game, sure

And no, I do not. However, if you go into Savage with a sub-optimal build and aren't able to keep us with everyone else, I'll ask you to change.

I won't level another job to please you, whatever you think of it. Besides, what people requires from jobs is waaaay before you even see people actually play, so it's stupid.

And? I explicitly said there were outliners. That doesn't mean they weren't still decidedly third place and frequently ignored.

Calling "outliners" teams that cleared Gordias 1 after a week and as server first is really funny.

You can also queue in as a premade with any composition you fancy. Doesn't mean it will work.

Actually it does. This is what differs between japan and NA community. They train a lot together and clear content in the Duty Finder. They don't ragequit when seeing a first time bonus day 1 or after a wipe.

The community decided which were better and it gradually became the norm. Blade & Soul and other games have similar issues.

No, the few elite teams end with something that works for them, and all the following wanabee copies them without understanding their real status on progression.

FFXI as a whole

Yeah, I know FFXI, and I had no issue progressing as a "useless" Puppetmaster or a "lol"DRG. People just didn't know how to be good with those jobs...

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Lord Of Verminion and Diadem are so much more useful to this game, sure

Apples and oranges. Overhauling the entire character progression system is a far more significant undertaking than LoV or Diadem. And if it flopped like those did. Congratulations, you just ruined your expansion.

I won't level another job to please you, whatever you think of it. Besides, what people requires from jobs is waaaay before you even see people actually play, so it's stupid.

Did I ever say that? Please don't put words in my mouth. I said if you willfully chose a character build that proved inferior, and it held us back. I would ask you to change because there are seven other players who want to progress and "I like this better" isn't a good reason. Character builds are not comparable to whole Jobs.

Calling "outliners" teams that cleared Gordias 1 after a week and as server first is really funny.

Sigh. Let's say, 100 groups cleared Gordias. If 80% used WAR/DRK, then PLD is the outliner regardless of when those groups cleared. Regardless, you can point to first week clears all you fancy. The community didn't bring PLD nearly as often. A similar occurrence happened with AST, hence why Square basically buffed them through the moon. They wouldn't do that if people were using AST more.

No, the few elite teams end with something that works for them, and all the following wanabee copies them without understanding their real status on progression.

... you essentially just proved my point. Even if this were entirely correct. That still demonstrates favoritism towards what is deemed better. You keep glossing over or straight up ignoring my references to other games, where this exact thing happens. People tend to gravitate to optimized builds, especially with how prolific guide makers are now. You can complain about it, however the devs have to consider if implementing such a system would actually be beneficial.